Vehicle attack in Toronto

[alancw3]

on the news this morning they said that toronto will never be the same again (things like this just don't happen in toronto) and has lost it's innocence. just ashamed that it had to happen. seems like nowhere is insulated from these type of senseless attacks anymore. the newscaster also said that it appears that these type (car and truck attacks) are becoming sop as they are the easiest to carryout. impossible for the police to guard against.

[xlbs]

he was a conflicted and perhaps confused man according to reports. He has asperger's to some serious degree and has for years struggled with basic communication. He is very bright and technologically able, but socially inept.

None of this excuses the act.

The arresting officer was doing what most Canadian officers are trained to do, although that has not been the case always. My son, an RCMP officer, tells me that they undertake to calm any volatile situation, before ever pulling the trigger.

I too lived in the area many years ago, and am deeply saddened to see and hear of this horrific event.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by parris

The a****le was trying for suicide by cop. The fact that he WASN'T shot is an anomaly. He clearly demonstrated that he was not only willing but capable of killing. I for one would really like to see the force continuum as well as that departments UOF policy.

What does that last sentence mean?

[parris]

OP the use of force continuum is a graduated level of force to a threat. A generic one would read from lowest to highest... presence, spoken orders, soft hand restraint techniques, chemical agents, impact weapons, lethal force.

UOF is just short for use of force policy. Every agency has one. many follow government guidelines and such.


The level of force utilized must be within the scope of the officer's duties, training, law, reasonableness etc. as well as subject officer factors. Age, size, injury, exhaustion, skill level, special knowledge, etc.

[Matthew]

parris, you must work in law enforcement or Corrections! I recognized the use of force terminology. I am torn over whether the officer should have smoked this guy. Ten innocent people were killed, many more injured. I would not shed one tear if this cretin was removed from the earth. He certainly didn't give a damn about the people he mowed down.

[xnetter]

I think it's important to remember that the officer is a living person too, and taking another person's life has psychological consequences. While first responders are trained to apply lethal force, it doesn't mean it should be used to 'smoke a perp' as if it's a video game. Based on video captured from the apprehension, it basically would have amounted to an execution.

That type of casual killing appears all the time in the US, but it's relatively uncommon here. Is it possible an officer can approach a hostile, threatening suspect and still not want to kill, even under fairly justifiable circumstances? Seems so. I wouldn't want to kill someone, even if people called me a hero for it.

KJ

[bigbill]

If the reports are true and he had a cell phone, not a gun, then the law enforcement officer likely saw that and didn't shoot. When the Charleston church shooter was pulled over and apprehended, I'm sure police were just waiting for a reason to shoot him, but he remained peaceful and was arrested without incident. He'll be killed later.

[parris]

Matthew I'm a Corrections Officer as well as Instructor and Armorer.

Xnetter you're right about the consequences of having to take another's life. That being said the possibility of having to take a life is a very real part of the profession and is why training is as thorough as it is. If the responding officer had taken the killer's life it would've been a suicide by cop situation NOT an execution. The mindset is very different in each situation.

I will take issue with your statement of "casual killing". LEO's have to make many split second decisions throughout their career. A LEO having to take a life is the LAST thing they want to do. None of the officers I've known over my career local, state, fed have ever wanted to kill the people they have.

[William]

Originally Posted by parris

Matthew I'm a Corrections Officer as well as Instructor and Armorer.

Xnetter you're right about the consequences of having to take another's life. That being said the possibility of having to take a life is a very real part of the profession and is why training is as thorough as it is. If the responding officer had taken the killer's life it would've been a suicide by cop situation NOT an execution. The mindset is very different in each situation.

I will take issue with your statement of "casual killing". LEO's have to make many split second decisions throughout their career. A LEO having to take a life is the LAST thing they want to do. None of the officers I've known over my career local, state, fed have ever wanted to kill the people they have.

+1000

I have worked with many LEO's over the years and they are people just like the rest of you. They do not go through their careers just looking for a reason to shoot people, it is the last resort. Sure there are outliers, but they are few and far between...that is true of any group.


This crazy person used a van to kill many people and there are many ways this could have ended. Kudos to the officers for doing what needed to be done to stop this person.






William

[GOTHBROOKS]

that uof comment is weird. i dont think cops get to be judge jury and executioner.

[Gsinill]

Originally Posted by GOTHBROOKS

that uof comment is weird. i dont think cops get to be judge jury and executioner.

You might find this interesting and surprising: http://useofforceproject.org/database/

[Black Dog]

Originally Posted by rousseau

There are a lot of generalized North American similarities between Canadians and Americans, but the way this incident played out is one example of the various cultural differences between the two countries.

It's pretty clear that the perpetrator would have been shot to death immediately in the U.S. With gun ownership and crime so unbelievably high there, the automatic assumption by police appears to be that any person of interest in any sort of incident is highly likely to be armed and dangerous. It's always shoot first and ask questions later there.

Not so here.

True. It was a great demo of how things can end without lethal force. A live apprehension is a better outcome.

However, a different officer on a different day may have acted differently given the high stress situation and the threat of a potential live weapon. However, if you are suggesting that our use of force protocols would not have ended in him being shot if he had a gun in hand and was pointing it at an officer then that would not be correct according to a close friend who is a local LEO.

[Matthew]

Use of force policies are in place in law enforcement establishments to use as guidelines. There are many variables involved in a situation, such as your perception of the immediate danger to you or others, etc. In this case the suspect exited his vehicle, so he was no longer likely going to use it to kill more people. And yes there are times when an officer will be the judge, jury, and executioner. Like when this animal was plowing through a crowd. Had he continued to do so damn right an officer could and should have stopped him with any means necessary.

[parris]

Goth what part of the UOF comment do you find weird? Maybe it's just a perception issue?

The judge jury executioner term is one that I'm struggling with. How is an officer operating as any of those during a dynamic incident typically? Something to keep in mind with these incidents is the time stage that the incident is in. There are many examples of LEO's having to use a lethal option in order to stop the offender from causing more destruction etc. After the event it's the job of the LEO to arrest the offender unless that offender attempts to utilize lethal force against the officer(s) or public. 3 perfect examples of this working are the apprehension of the Parkland shooter, Waffle House shooter, And David Sweat in Northern NY. To state judge, jury, and executioner on the face of things is inaccurate.

[cadence90]

This was yet another sad, horrendous tragedy, of course.

It is definitely not for me to state whether a lethal outcome for the assailant by the police would have "better", "justified", etc., but I do find the use of the terms "...the officer should have smoked this [cretin, animal] [turd] [a****le]..." very sad and pretty scary as well.
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