Doc Sues Group Ride After Crash

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

There are a few local hammer rides here that I also dislike. Seems like guys are willing to take real risks for no good reason.

The Big Pro races always have a bunch of crashes because riders are pushing the limits and taking risks as part of a racing strategy. Taking those risks on Sunday morning for no reason? No thanks.

No kidding..a MAMIL and his EGO are big words. Some rides like this here..gen-u-ine pros lineup with WE warriors..go play in traffic up 36 to Carter Lake and back..

[batman1425]

Another classic example of the state of affairs today where folks are not willing to take responsibility for their own risky behavior. Why do people feel like they can do whatever they want out on public roads and not be responsible for their own decision making?

Interesting thought exercise - what if the riders in question were in cars or on motorcycles instead of bikes. Imagine the reaction to one driver suing another for getting hurt in an unsanctioned racing situation on public roads.

I'm also not getting the lawsuit angle, other than to prove a point. Any competent medical provider should have a more than sufficient disability policy to handle unfortunate circumstances just like this. Though perhaps this person's policy is void if the accident is a result of their own personal negligence - read: engaging in uninsured/unsanctioned sporting events. This reads to me as the rider being "that guy" in the group and the lawsuit is all part of is ego. He would need to have been hurt really bad to be unable to sit behind a microscope anymore.

[Red Tornado]

The guy's *****ting on his sport and fellow riders. Show up for that kind of ride & you assume a level of risk. Actually, every time you swing a leg over the saddle you assume risk. A waiver I used to sign at races contained the verbiage "As cycling is an inherently dangerous sport......". I know this wasn't a race, but the concept still applies.
I can understand the frustration associated with the physical outcomes of the crash, but it doesn't appear anyone wrecked him on purpose.
Show up & take your chances. No one forced him to participate in this ride. Classless, money-grabbing and (possibly) vengeful lawsuit IMHO.

[jtakeda]

Originally Posted by rustychisel

BUT - are there any circumstances in a group ride where such a suit might be justified? Group leader intentionally taking the group into a dangerous situation, or something? Or is it completely caveat emptor? [just thinking out loud]

I suppose if after further investigation we found that the guy who caused the crash had a long chain of verifiable evidence that proved he hated and wanted to injure the doc and planned a premeditated attack to kamikaze bike himself on this particular group ride than the lawsuit is not frivolous.

Or if the doc was not apart of the ride at all and was doing his own solo ride when a pack of raging cyclist mowed him down. Sure I can see that.

Other than those circumstances if I see the doctor on the road I will heckle him.

[benb]

Originally Posted by rustychisel

BUT - are there any circumstances in a group ride where such a suit might be justified? Group leader intentionally taking the group into a dangerous situation, or something? Or is it completely caveat emptor? [just thinking out loud]

The closest thing I could see is actually a ride where the ride leaders do not do a good job of indicating turns and such and end up causing an accident that way at a dangerous intersection.

Hard to say if that would actually ever justify a suit but I've been in some ride (which interestingly were not Type-A competitive rides) where the ride leaders were trying to maintain iron clad control of the group/pace in an effort to be safe, but then were doing a horrible job of signaling turns which was causing chaos at intersections. The fact they were trying to run such a super tight paceline was compounding the chaos.

[rwsaunders]

I wonder if his bike had disc brakes?

[paredown]

Originally Posted by rwsaunders

I wonder if his bike had disc brakes?

LOL--now you're just trolling...

I'm surprised that a group ride would have regular crashes--are people's bike handling skills really that bad?

Aside from a couple of whoopsies (railroad tracks come to mind, as the occasional corner with just enough gravel) I can barely remember crashes on training rides....

[GregL]

Originally Posted by paredown

LOL--now you're just trolling...

I'm surprised that a group ride would have regular crashes--are people's bike handling skills really that bad?

Aside from a couple of whoopsies (railroad tracks come to mind, as the occasional corner with just enough gravel) I can barely remember crashes on training rides....

Yes, people's bike handling skills ARE that bad. Strava KOMs do not necessarily make for good pack skills. The problem starts when "training rides" become unsanctioned races. Too few skills and too much competitiveness. Lots of riders who won't pin on a number in a sanctioned race mixing it up with strong experienced racers. It's a recipe for crashes.

Greg

[rwsaunders]

Originally Posted by paredown

LOL--now you're just trolling....

Roger that, but if I were one of the defendants, I might reference one of the bike forums and pull information from the side of the disc brake argument that supported my case.

[notsew]

Originally Posted by rustychisel

There's some pretty pugnacious, aggressive and mean replies here, and I get that - having been a group rider and having crashed a couple of times

BUT - are there any circumstances in a group ride where such a suit might be justified? Group leader intentionally taking the group into a dangerous situation, or something? Or is it completely caveat emptor? [just thinking out loud]

I could see some argument for suing the person responsible if the action was taken out of malice, but this dude is suing every single person on the ride.

I can't imagine this will go much of anywhere, but just the idea of having to spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer because some a-hole needs to prove a point is frankly a little scary to me.

[William]

Originally Posted by rustychisel

...BUT - are there any circumstances in a group ride where such a suit might be justified? Group leader intentionally taking the group into a dangerous situation, or something? Or is it completely caveat emptor? [just thinking out loud]

Maybe I guess. Or if someone intentionally hooked the doc with the express purpose of taking him out. Pretty hard to prove unless you have witnesses who would testify and/or video evidence.

The fact is anytime you ride in a group stuff can happen. I think anyone who has spent time in groups of riders in close proximity training, racing, or even leisurely group rides would agree that it is a possible risk of riding together. Heck, even pros go down sometimes when the groupetto is together. I've been in groups training and racing and I was totally comfortable in a paceline or bumping elbows because I knew these folks knew how to ride and handle their bikes. That doesn't mean stuff can't happen, but I trusted them just as they trusted me. On the flip side I've been in some group rides that riders were so sketchy I would either go to the front and stay there or ride just off the back. Access the situation and act accordingly. You are responsible for you.

Again, unless someone maliciously takes you out and you can prove it you might have something otherwise you accepted the risk of accidental injury when you agreed to ride in a group (by jumping in and participating).

People on bikes, in close proximity, at speed is inherently dangerous. If you don't get that you shouldn't be riding in a group.








William

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by William

Again, unless someone maliciously takes you out and you can prove it you might have something otherwise you accepted the risk of accidental injury when you agreed to ride in a group (by jumping in and participating).William

There was another recent example of this from the widow of a rider in Tennessee that sued the group he was riding with when he crashed and sadly lost his life.

I don't know how comparable the circumstances are and I'm not a lawyer, but last I heard from that case, there was some meat in it for the lawsuit and the original dismissal was overturned. I recall the basis was (correct me if I'm wrong) that a person in that setting has an obligation to act in a "reasonable way" and that if someone fails to do so, with the result being someone gets hurt, they may be held liable. The metric for what is "reasonable" gets murky though. Particularly in the context of an agreed upon "race". Does a touch of wheels when you are on the rivet mean you acted unreasonably? How about missing calling out that pothole because you are in the hooks trying to reel in a move? Taking a drink at the wrong time and losing control? Maybe participation in an unsanctioned event is the "unreasonable" part?

[William]

Originally Posted by batman1425

There was another recent example of this from the widow of a rider in Tennessee that sued the group he was riding with when he crashed and sadly lost his life.

I don't know how comparable the circumstances are and I'm not a lawyer, but last I heard from that case, there was some meat in it for the lawsuit and the original dismissal was overturned. I recall the basis was (correct me if I'm wrong) that a person in that setting has an obligation to act in a "reasonable way" and that if someone fails to do so, with the result being someone gets hurt, they may be held liable. The metric for what is "reasonable" gets murky though. Particularly in the context of an agreed upon "race". Does a touch of wheels when you are on the rivet mean you acted unreasonably? How about missing calling out that pothole because you are in the hooks trying to reel in a move? Taking a drink at the wrong time and losing control? Maybe participation in an unsanctioned event is the "unreasonable" part?

Is what is considered "reasonable" the same for riders who regularly ride in a group vs someone who doesn't ride looking in?

I dunno?

I default back to...People on bikes, in close proximity, at speed is inherently dangerous. Most people who don't ride would consider riding in such close proximity fast as unreasonable and dangerous.

No one wants to crash. But when you jump into a group of riders that possibility is always there.






William

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by William

Is what is considered "reasonable" the same for riders who regularly ride in a group vs someone who doesn't ride looking in?

I dunno?

I default back to...People on bikes, in close proximity, at speed is inherently dangerous. Most people who don't ride would consider riding in such close proximity fast as unreasonable and dangerous.

No one wants to crash. But when you jump into a group of riders that possibility is always there.

Great question about the sliding scale or frame of reference to what is appropriate. I don't know how to account for that, and that's why I think the buck should always stop at the individual. It's your responsibility to stay safe - ride defensively. If you cannot be safe because of your own skills, or others that participate with you and you willingly choose to continue thats a risk you are assuming. It gets messy when the laws are all written for motorists and risk/fault is trying to be assigned to a different group of people with different functional, operational, and behavioral constraints.

I'm with you on assuming your own risk, particularly in groups. I'd go one step further and say that most people who don't ride would consider riding on a public roads at all to be unreasonable and dangerous. I've had plenty of motor vehicle drives tell me that when I'm in their way and to get on the sidewalk.

[veloduffer]

Originally Posted by paredown

I'm surprised that a group ride would have regular crashes--are people's bike handling skills really that bad?



Aside from a couple of whoopsies (railroad tracks come to mind, as the occasional corner with just enough gravel) I can barely remember crashes on training rides....

So many riders don’t know how to hold their line in a pack; never rode on wet/rain or sandy corners; over-react to in-pack bumping/shoulder rub; sit up without thinking about the riders behind, etc.

No different than how people drive their cars these days.

If you look how teams ride in training rides, it’s not as a pack but double pacelines. These are unsanctioned races, and in racing there are crashes - it’s the nature of racing.



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