ENVE advising LBSs to not support open tubular tires

[Ed-B]

We've been riding these "Open Tubular" tires for decades. There were Hutchinson A.S. Coton Turbo tires in the 90's, I rode those. Vittoria has made cotton cased "Open Corsa" tires for years - I have 5 pairs in use right now. And there's Veloflex, and Challenge, and perhaps others...

And now ENVE says that bike shops shouldn't support these tires because they fail. Really?

I think ENVE has drawn more attention to their own product with this advice. If we're told that a natural fiber casing is cut and damaged, what makes anyone think that a synthetic casing will be unaffected?

This sounds like a rim problem to me. Maybe ENVE should work to improve the rim/tire interface on their rims to reduce the abrasion and cutting damage being done to these tires.

[fignon's barber]

On a related note, for those who want to live dangerously, Vittoria has just released the Corsa Graphene 2.0. They say it has 40% better rolling resistance, 40% more durable, and 30% better grip. No mention of spontaneous explosion or death though.

https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/27/vit...ene-2-0-tires/

[bshell]

Ergott is right.

This is an Enve problem (-or any other company w/poorly finished hooks)...NOT a Vittoria problem.

I am not a wheel builder other than for myself and I recently had to send back two of their rims due to dangerously jagged hooks. I have no idea how these made it past QC and out the door.

On the other hand, three sets of carbon clinchers from Light Bicycle have been immaculate at 1/4 of the cost.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by ergott

I've personally owned 3 different sets of Edge Composites wheels and Enve 4.5s, 6.7s, and 8.9s. I've built and sold more than my share. There's definitely no personal bias at all. I think they do a lot of things well and would own another set of tubular wheels in a heartbeat. I just know for a fact that the edges of their clincher rims aren't as well finished as other manufacturers. There are also more imperfections at the transition from tire bed to sidewall and they use a filler in some places. I haven't taken pictures of this and posted because I don't make bashing components a habit. I felt the need to point out this issue as they are advising against certain tires and I don't think it's an issue with the tires.

I buy components from any and every company that I think makes quality stuff. I make a habit of not stocking anything in bulk so it doesn't persuade me to sell someone on components just because I have them on hand. I will continue to work with Enve in other aspects when I see fit.

Just bought some carbon clinchers, I past on Enve as I have seen the same second-rate shoddy workmanship with a friends wheelset. Went with Bontrager, more for my money and flawless in comparison.

[apple]

Originally Posted by bshell

Ergott is right.

This is an Enve problem (-or any other company w/poorly finished hooks)...NOT a Vittoria problem.

I am not a wheel builder other than for myself and I recently had to send back two of their rims due to dangerously jagged hooks. I have no idea how these made it past QC and out the door.

On the other hand, three sets of carbon clinchers from Light Bicycle have been immaculate at 1/4 of the cost.

I've started to have the same experience. Typically I've gravitated toward Enve or Zipp for carbon wheels, but have had some weird Enve experiences like yours. Not rising to the level of "send them back" but things that seemed slightly sketchy. I've tried now two sets of Roval CLX cabon wheels and both have been pretty much idea. Very small sample sizes here, and I still trust Enve as a company, just have been going "hmmm..." lately.

[dddd]

I would have thought that the hand-made clinchers would all have a cloth chafer strip protecting the casing against the edges of the rim(?).

One other "open tubular" design aspect seems to be that a two-ply casing material is folded and glued around the beads, rather than a single ply folded over the bead and then extended to overlap under the tread for a flat-resisting three plies there.
This gives the open tubular casing a minimal two plies under the tread instead of the usual three as used in the typical clincher tire.
This doesn't count any added belts of course.

I also am wondering what/if the open tubular tire's more-supple casing is resulting in pressure-related issues with the rim, since these supple tires do need higher pressure to achieve the same stability on the rim.

And as for the rims, I see a lot of material having been removed from modern rim's bead/sidewall area over recent years, and ENVE did mention that even some alloy rims were shown to cause open tubular tires to be failure-prone. Time to start add adding a more generous radius there?

[benb]

Originally Posted by HTupolev

No, that's a Tufo "tubular clincher." They're silly and make no sense for any purpose.

Thanks, that is the product I was confusing with these "open tubular" tires. I was reaching pretty far back... I heard of a couple people trying them 15 years ago or so.

A bunch of silly names... "Tubular Clincher", "Open Tubular".

Maybe I will launch "basketsquares" or "footsquares" or "basesquares". They will be spheres, but I'll call them Squares.

On the Open Tubulars.. these things save tiny grams and tiny watts, if it turns out they get that by being dangerous on some rims I bet these tires disappear.

It seems there is nothing wrong with these tires and nothing wrong with the Enve rims but we don't have true system integration with a lot of bike stuff.. it's consumer integrated. Not really tested.

I had a set of Velomax/Easton wheels. Nothing wrong with them. I got some Vredstein tires at one point. Nothing wrong with them. They did not work together, I had several blowoffs. But I bet there were no off the shelf bikes that were shipping with that combo.

[SPOKE]

Originally Posted by nicrump

i've had/get far more fatal sidewall cuts on the last 3 iterations of michelin pr2-4 than i ever have on my vittoria opens. In fact i've had zero on my vittoria's.

truth!!!!

[Heisenberg]

sorry for being that guy who doesn't read the whole thread...

but i've run vittorias and other open tubs on enve rims quite a bit without issue. i do tend to wear out these kinds of tires faster than others, so perhaps my anecdotal experience is skewed. THAT SAID...

ENVE rims have always been really, really, really ****ing good at cutting apart tires on the mountain (read: tubeless) side. i will readily admit that my experience with ENVE post-road tubeless capability is minimal. are the road rims now suffering from the same issue as tubeless comes into vogue?

in any case, long live the ENVE 25. may it always be available secondhand.

ps: if you run challenge clinchers you may have a penchant for large medical bills, on any rim.

[galgal]

Will be interesting to see if any of the other manufacturers ENVE is referring to follow suit in issuing warnings or if Vittoria follows Veloflex in recommending that their Open Corsa's not be used with carbon wheels. If that doesn't happen, would have to think this is more about ENVE than Vittoria. Admittedly, I hope so, as have Vittoria Open Corsa's on all my bikes, including carbon wheels - Campy not ENVE. No issues with the combo, and Vittoria's don't seem more puncture prone than the GP4II I used previously or the Michelin OP 3-4 which were horrible. Besides the Vittoria's ride nicer. IMHO

[sfo1]

Seems fairly straight forward: a carbon semi-unfinished / rough / sharp edge and cotton sidewalls.

Not Vittoria’s fault and I don’t hear anyone saying they have issues with (Vittoria cotton) and Mavic, DT, Specialized, NOX, Zipp, etc.

Seems like an Enve issue and I don’t think you can simply chalk it up to QC. Maybe a design issue.

Originally Posted by galgal

Will be interesting to see if any of the other manufacturers ENVE is referring to follow suit in issuing warnings

[Spdntrxi]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

A recent thread on poor Enve rim quality:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=234825

It's also no secret that the first generation of Enve carbon clinchers had trouble handling brake heat.



Just growing pains that have or will be addressed? Possibly. But there is ample past evidence of problematic Enve rims.

almost everyone's 1st gen CC could not handle heat... so enve was no different.. why are you surprised.

[GregL]

...and Enve goes on the PR offensive: https://cyclingtips.com/2019/03/enve...cher-failures/

Greg

[AngryScientist]

didnt read all the responses, but the initial release from ENVE is ridiculous IMO.

reading between the lines they are claiming that open tubular construction tires are not safe on any rims, not just theirs.

that's just crazy talk. veloflex and vittoria open tires are my favorites and i, along with many others have tens of thousands of miles on them.



not fair of enve to call out the wildly popular vittoria corsa as "unsafe".

[jtbadge]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

didnt read all the responses, but the initial release from ENVE is ridiculous IMO.

reading between the lines they are claiming that open tubular construction tires are not safe on any rims, not just theirs.

that's just crazy talk. veloflex and vittoria open tires are my favorites and i, along with many others have tens of thousands of miles on them.

note too that enve specifically names vittoria and challenge tires; and NOT specialized, with their cotton turbos. they know better, spec will sue their butts off!

not fair of enve to call out the wildly popular vittoria corsa as "unsafe".

Aren't the Turbo Cottons essentially the same tire as the previous generation of Vittoria Corsa? Definitely should be included if they're recommending against Challenge and Vittoria.