Flat Bar Conversion / Shimano with Campagnolo

[Johnny7]

I've been considering a road bike flat bar conversion since a purchase of a xxl Trek 10x1 gravel bike several months ago. Which is fine for paths etc, and climes well for what it is. I noticed quickly that the low cost shifters / brake levers worked fine and that a wider handlebar is not bad at all and curious about converting my road bike. After reading and watching youtube videos it looked very easy if the parts are available for a 9sp Campagnolo groupset. Which there are NONE and a concern but continued on ordering the 7 parts needed: 2 shifters, 2 brakes, 2 Mt bike ends and a handlebar, holding my breath if the Shimano Alivio would work together without throwing/grinding the chain.

I really wanted to keep the 177.5 mm Ulta Cranks and also not blow a lot of money, so far the cost total was $125. Everything fit fine but as suspected could not get all 9 gears on a 13-28 cassette, only 8 in either direction 13 - 27 or 14 - 28, but is this all bad, I could have left it depending on ride conditions lol

No no just kidding I can fix this issue, a less wide cassette is needed! Idk about Shimano but 9 speed Campy has spacers and I have a bunch. Quickly ran to the workbench drill press and cut a grove-circle in a piece of wood with a 1/8" wing cutter with a shallow depth which was a holder for the spacer ring. Next simply sanded a few thousands off 6 spacers while measuring carefully.

Wow it worked! The simple mod really hit the mark, shifts nicely and the index #s are in the right place.


*wingcutter that should have been my handle, I have a box with 25 of them for other projects.

[oliver1850]

I've made similar special thickness spacers on the lathe out of PVC pipe. I never considered sanding existing ones down.

Did you use Shimano cogs or Campagnolo? What's the rear derailleur?

[Johnny7]

Oliver,
I did consider using 1-1/4" pvc DIY spacers, but tried the light sanding on old, spare spacers first (which took less than a hour start to finish). I'm curious if others have tried this method to dial-in a fussy cassette or component mismatch.

The bike has Campy components, including a small cage 9 speed Dayton derailleur. I have several spares, all sizes, in a box, something wrong with everyone of them! The small cage is not the best choice in some respects, but it is easier to shift!

*Except of course the Alivio shifters on the handle bar. Btw really like the action on the front derailleur, push thumb level to move chain, light touch to return (only one lever) Inexpensive, $18 - $20 each.

Why do this? I have 4 sets of really nice wheels, all campy 9 speed splines.

[oliver1850]

I've never compared Campagnolo 9 cable pull to Shimano 9. It must be fairly close to the same. It sounds like you ended up with spacers that are fairly close to Shimano 9 thickness (2.56 mm).

What's surprising to me is that the front shifter evidently works well with a Campagnolo derailleur. I remember trying several different brands/models that didn't work well when I used Deore 9 shifters on a road bike 2x9 setup. Can't remember if I tried a Campagnolo. Ended up with a Sachs on the bike.

[Johnny7]

I've been measuring what the modification did to the spacer thickness:
Original Campy 9 spacer: 2.85mm
Reduced size: 2.75mm which is approx 0.004 thousandth (thickness of copy paper)
I noticed numbering on the spacers, but they they all measure the same.

I went out yesterday, but there was a lot of broken glass on the road and gave up quickly. However, the shifting was great!

A lot more glass out there days, I think folks are throwing mini shot bottles out car windows.

Originally Posted by oliver1850

I've never compared Campagnolo 9 cable pull to Shimano 9. It must be fairly close to the same. It sounds like you ended up with spacers that are fairly close to Shimano 9 thickness (2.56 mm).

What's surprising to me is that the front shifter evidently works well with a Campagnolo derailleur. I remember trying several different brands/models that didn't work well when I used Deore 9 shifters on a road bike 2x9 setup. Can't remember if I tried a Campagnolo. Ended up with a Sachs on the bike.

[Johnny7]

Thinking might try one more method: make the circular-cuts in a solid piece of oak, fine tune the depth buy planing the oak thickness, next, set in spacers and sand flush with an appropriate sander.
The shifters came with super cheap cables and the rear is stretching a bit, but an easy fix.

Originally Posted by Johnny7

I've been measuring what the modification did to the spacer thickness:
Original Campy 9 spacer: 2.85mm
Reduced size: 2.75mm which is approx 0.004 thousandth (thickness of copy paper)
I noticed numbering on the spacers, but they they all measure the same.

I went out yesterday, but there was a lot of broken glass on the road and gave up quickly. However, the shifting was great!

A lot more glass out there days, I think folks are throwing mini shot bottles out car windows.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Johnny7

Thinking might try one more method: make the circular-cuts in a solid piece of oak, fine tune the depth buy planing the oak thickness, next, set in spacers and sand flush with an appropriate sander.
The shifters came with super cheap cables and the rear is stretching a bit, but an easy fix.

Wouldn't purpleheart or teak be a better idea?

[Johnny7]

I ended up using a piece of mdf and made another smaller set, again measuring along the way. The silver stack is the smallest.
The good news: Shifts like a new bike with proper components!!
The bad news: With the smallest stack the outside cassette-nut won't torque down, it was fine with the middle stack. Going to install a thin metal washer at the back of the spline, next to the wheel spokes. Also could alternate them if wanted to get a ride in.
Correction; the number of spacers for a 9 speed is 7.

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Wouldn't purpleheart or teak be a better idea?

[oliver1850]

Sounds like you are getting close to the Shimano total cassette width.

[dddd]

Originally Posted by oliver1850

Sounds like you are getting close to the Shimano total cassette width.

Which seems strange, given that a Shimano rear derailer isn't being used.

Early Campag 9s shifters pulled more cable (3.2mm versus 3.0mm) than the later ones, and far more than Shimano 9s shifters (which pull only 2.5mm). So I would have expected a much bigger change in the spacing (and narrower chain to go with that) would be needed.

Even the cog spacing difference by itself is .008" (.2mm) between Shimano 9s and Campag 9s, which alone is more than the OP has machined off each spacer!

The OP has the older 9s rear derailer, so I'm not sure what gives with the math here.
This mis-matched setup would seem to be begging for something like 12s spacing, since the .004" spacer reduction wouldn't even make up for the cassette width difference between Shimano 9s and Campag 9s, let alone the huge (as in 22% less) difference in cable pull from the 9s Shimano lever.

To the OP, has the cable anchoring perhaps been re-positioned to the other side of the binder bolt on the rear derailer (which would increase the derailer's actuation ratio)?

As for the front derailer working with the Shimano levers, Shimano's front MTB levers do pull a lot more cable per click than their road shifters, so might be expected to play well with a Campag front derailer.

To put the cable-pull difference in real-world perspective, an early 9s Campagnolo Ergolever will actuate a 9s Shimano rear derailer to index a standard-spaced 5s or 6s freewheel, something that I have personally tested on more than one bike.

[Johnny7]

dddd,

Thank you for posting this, some great comments.
It did not occur to me using a Shimano derailer, but wouldn't know where to start as far as selecting one.
I did find a 18-Gauge Machine Bushing (1.25mm) which is installed first (next to wheel) to compensate for the 7 spacer reduction which is .0008 each for the silver stack in photo. The outside cap-nut is approximately in the original position. [Hillman Group 45678 1-3/8-Inch x 2-1/8-Inch]

No no not a lot of math, no specs, but that the original combination worked well enough that I felt all that was needed is tweeking.

A thinner chain crossed my mind, using a C9 now, which is the same as an 8 (I think) A 10 speed chain is not out of question, but did read 9 speed chains run about 6.6 to 6.8mm in width, while a 10 speed chain is about 6.2mm.

The front derailleur is fine but the adjustment setting is a bit narrow to keep that chain from popping off (which hasn't happened so far)

Question about cable anchoring, that would nearly impossible because there are two tabs that are in the way. I have a lot of experience with Campy, I was jumping for joy when friends told that the shiffers can be rebuilt and I had several that had cracked, integral cogs.

Any thoughts about using a 10 speed chain and Shimano R derailer?

Thank you again!

Originally Posted by dddd

Which seems strange, given that a Shimano rear derailer isn't being used.

Early Campag 9s shifters pulled more cable (3.2mm versus 3.0mm) than the later ones, and far more than Shimano 9s shifters (which pull only 2.5mm). So I would have expected a much bigger change in the spacing (and narrower chain to go with that) would be needed.

Even the cog spacing difference by itself is .008" (.2mm) between Shimano 9s and Campag 9s, which alone is more than the OP has machined off each spacer!

The OP has the older 9s rear derailer, so I'm not sure what gives with the math here.
This mis-matched setup would seem to be begging for something like 12s spacing, since the .004" spacer reduction wouldn't even make up for the cassette width difference between Shimano 9s and Campag 9s, let alone the huge (as in 22% less) difference in cable pull from the 9s Shimano lever.

To the OP, has the cable anchoring perhaps been re-positioned to the other side of the binder bolt on the rear derailer (which would increase the derailer's actuation ratio)?

As for the front derailer working with the Shimano levers, Shimano's front MTB levers do pull a lot more cable per click than their road shifters, so might be expected to play well with a Campag front derailer.

To put the cable-pull difference in real-world perspective, an early 9s Campagnolo Ergolever will actuate a 9s Shimano rear derailer to index a standard-spaced 5s or 6s freewheel, something that I have personally tested on more than one bike.

[ridethecliche]

When I raced in college, I ran a campy centaur groupset with a shimano cassette. 10 speed.

Indexing it was awful but once it was dialed in, it worked just fine.

[dddd]

Originally Posted by Johnny7

dddd,

Thank you for posting this, some great comments.
It did not occur to me using a Shimano derailer, but wouldn't know where to start as far as selecting one.
I did find a 18-Gauge Machine Bushing (1.25mm) which is installed first (next to wheel) to compensate for the 7 spacer reduction which is .0008 each for the silver stack in photo. The outside cap-nut is approximately in the original position. [Hillman Group 45678 1-3/8-Inch x 2-1/8-Inch]

No no not a lot of math, no specs, but that the original combination worked well enough that I felt all that was needed is tweeking.

A thinner chain crossed my mind, using a C9 now, which is the same as an 8 (I think) A 10 speed chain is not out of question, but did read 9 speed chains run about 6.6 to 6.8mm in width, while a 10 speed chain is about 6.2mm.

The front derailleur is fine but the adjustment setting is a bit narrow to keep that chain from popping off (which hasn't happened so far)

Question about cable anchoring, that would nearly impossible because there are two tabs that are in the way. I have a lot of experience with Campy, I was jumping for joy when friends told that the shiffers can be rebuilt and I had several that had cracked, integral cogs.

Any thoughts about using a 10 speed chain and Shimano R derailer?

Thank you again!

I am recalling that at some point, Campagnolo offered their C9 chain as a replacement for their earlier 8s groups.

Certainly any pre-11s Shimano Road derailer would match the actuation ratio needed by the Alivio shift levers, something like a 7700 or 7800 Dura Ace rear derailer would work well with your modified cassette and give a shiny appearance.

[Johnny7]

I was on the right track in the beginning and lucky it worked as well as it did. The most recent ploy with reduced spacers and a machine washer [shim] to keep the correct width at the cassette is working nicely. At one time I thought it may need to add a washer at the derailer to move it out, but not now. The high and low adjusters are engaged and room on the barrel adjustment.

Better weather the next few days!

Originally Posted by ridethecliche

When I raced in college, I ran a campy centaur groupset with a shimano cassette. 10 speed.

Indexing it was awful but once it was dialed in, it worked just fine.

[Johnny7]

Ok good info! 7700 or 7800 Dura Ace and a 10 speed Campy chain - got it.

The rear is looking good actually, picked up a Campagnolo Veloce cassette [new] for $50 on eBay.

The reason I have all the 9 speed components is going back to my first Serotta, then years later I ordered the 2nd one that is in the pic. The Campy 9 speed life was short lived but I kept using it.

Originally Posted by dddd

I am recalling that at some point, Campagnolo offered their C9 chain as a replacement for their earlier 8s groups.

Certainly any pre-11s Shimano Road derailer would match the actuation ratio needed by the Alivio shift levers, something like a 7700 or 7800 Dura Ace rear derailer would work well with your modified cassette and give a shiny appearance.