Rivendell saved for now...

[jtakeda]

Originally Posted by Lewis Moon

The trick is to marry the good stuff from modern tech with the beauty and class of the older bikes in a seamless manner that works and looks right. It's not one or the other.
And...keep it at a price point that allows said bike to be owned as one of several bikes, by real people.

Omg. What did that man do to that Volvo 122s? He should be arrested

[ravdg316]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

I am not sure about that. People that are into that aspect of road cycling do not want a Riv, even if the picture shows the bike kitted out with road parts. I don't think Rivs savior is in modern rim brake road bikes.

You could be right. I’ve personally been attracted to lugged rivs with modern components, but not everybody feels the same way. The concept needs to be tested with what normally sells for Riv — catering to the crowd that already likes Riv’s seems to not have been as successful in the last few Years.

For me, Riv=thin-tubed, lugged, stable geometry, comfortable, beautiful. None of those words contradict “modern.”

I had mine set up with a slammed stem, Hed Belgium’s and Shimano 105. It was too small, but never would’ve sold it otherwise.

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[El Chaba]

Disk brakes are going to do more damage to any traditional semblance of what a road bike has been in recent years than what mountain bikes did back in the late 80's-early 90's.Rivendell as a company that produces something that falls into the broad category of retro/vintage/traditional (even if it is their own version of it) will be hard hit. I think you are only seeing the beginning of the hard times for similar companies. There will be scraps of the market left, but the market in general is shrinking as well. There will be more victims than just Rivendell....

[dancinkozmo]

Originally Posted by Lewis Moon

lewis, is this your tinder pic ?

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by jtakeda

Omg. What did that man do to that Volvo 122s? He should be arrested

The Hard Rock Cafe sweatshirt is protecting him from the bad karma.

[Lewis Moon]

Originally Posted by tctyres

The Hard Rock Cafe sweatshirt is protecting him from the bad karma.

That was just the first example I came up with on a Google search for modernizing classic cars. I actually kinda like it...the guy may be a DB, and I'm not a huge fan of super low riders, but this one is pretty gorgeous.

[sjbraun]

I just read the Roadeo web page. To me, it speaks to why Rivendell is struggling. I suspect that many Riv buyers are already seasoned riders, looking for an N+1 bike that provides a different experience than the Trek, Specialized, or Cannondale they currently ride. But this is the first copy they read on the Roadeo web page:

"The Roadeo is our answer to speedy carbon road bikes that cost the same or more, last one-fifth as long or less, and aren't as safe, comfortable, versatile or good-looking."

So before GP writes anything positive about the Roadeo, he begins by bashing modern bikes with claims that simply aren't true.
You can't win by telling your potential customers that their current bike sucks. I ride steel and carbon, so I fully appreciate the magic ride of a quality steel frame. But to say carbon bikes are unsafe or uncomfortable is just not true.

Here are some more excerpts:

"Many of those are European-branded but are actually made in cheap-labor countries." SO how is this a problem. Didn't GP move production of many of his frames from Japan to Taiwan for this same reason?

"a Roadeo will shrug off unexpected bumps and wind gusts better than most speedy little bikes do. The longer-than-normal chainstays help. They don't make the Roadeo slower to accelerate (big chainstay myth, that one) and they are absolutely better on descents, in corners and in the wind----because they keep the wheelbase reasonable." Okay, there might be some truth in the claim that longer chainstays aid descending, but to claim that the Roadeo will handle bumps or wind better than "speedy little bikes" is a stretch, and the phrase "speedy little bikes" seems intended more to disparage than to describe.

"A steel frame and fork is safer on your first ride and maintains its safety much longer than carbon does." Really? Why espouse a myth? Bikes made from all materials fail and very few of them actually do fail.

"We can't nail to the millimeter how big a tire any bike will take, but the ROADEO will take a bigger tire than 99 percent of the road bikes in the world, and it is impossible to design a road fork that'll beat it in this way."

A Roadeo will handle a 33.3mm tire, so will my buddy's Canyon as well as pretty much every manufacturer's "endurance" frames. So maybe it is possible to design a road fork that can do what a Roadeo's will do.

"With either kind of fork, threadless or threaded, you'll be much more comfortable---and safer---on the steel Roadeo than on any carbon bike of the same size.That doesn't mean it'll never break. Any bike can, even a steel one; and the Roadeo is a light steel one. But steel, by its nature, is safer than any other frame material, and the steel in the Roadeo is really good, strong steel. We won't sell you one if you weigh 250 pounds or more. The Roadeo is a light road bike for sub-heavyweights. It's not for everybody."

Frankly, when you read all the ad copy, GP comes off as a crackpot. But you can always buy a hatchet.

[colker]

Originally Posted by sjbraun

I just read the Roadeo web page. To me, it speaks to why Rivendell is struggling. I suspect that many Riv buyers are already seasoned riders, looking for an N+1 bike that provides a different experience than the Trek, Specialized, or Cannondale they currently ride. But this is the first copy they read on the Roadeo web page:

"The Roadeo is our answer to speedy carbon road bikes that cost the same or more, last one-fifth as long or less, and aren't as safe, comfortable, versatile or good-looking."

So before GP writes anything positive about the Roadeo, he begins by bashing modern bikes with claims that simply aren't true.
You can't win by telling your potential customers that their current bike sucks. I ride steel and carbon, so I fully appreciate the magic ride of a quality steel frame. But to say carbon bikes are unsafe or uncomfortable is just not true.

Here are some more excerpts:

"Many of those are European-branded but are actually made in cheap-labor countries." SO how is this a problem. Didn't GP move production of many of his frames from Japan to Taiwan for this same reason?

"a Roadeo will shrug off unexpected bumps and wind gusts better than most speedy little bikes do. The longer-than-normal chainstays help. They don't make the Roadeo slower to accelerate (big chainstay myth, that one) and they are absolutely better on descents, in corners and in the wind----because they keep the wheelbase reasonable." Okay, there might be some truth in the claim that longer chainstays aid descending, but to claim that the Roadeo will handle bumps or wind better than "speedy little bikes" is a stretch, and the phrase "speedy little bikes" seems intended more to disparage than to describe.

"A steel frame and fork is safer on your first ride and maintains its safety much longer than carbon does." Really? Why espouse a myth? Bikes made from all materials fail and very few of them actually do fail.

"We can't nail to the millimeter how big a tire any bike will take, but the ROADEO will take a bigger tire than 99 percent of the road bikes in the world, and it is impossible to design a road fork that'll beat it in this way."

A Roadeo will handle a 33.3mm tire, so will my buddy's Canyon as well as pretty much every manufacturer's "endurance" frames. So maybe it is possible to design a road fork that can do what a Roadeo's will do.

"With either kind of fork, threadless or threaded, you'll be much more comfortable---and safer---on the steel Roadeo than on any carbon bike of the same size.That doesn't mean it'll never break. Any bike can, even a steel one; and the Roadeo is a light steel one. But steel, by its nature, is safer than any other frame material, and the steel in the Roadeo is really good, strong steel. We won't sell you one if you weigh 250 pounds or more. The Roadeo is a light road bike for sub-heavyweights. It's not for everybody."

Frankly, when you read all the ad copy, GP comes off as a crackpot. But you can always buy a hatchet.

"... to claim that the Roadeo will handle bumps or wind better than "speedy little bikes" is a stretch, and the phrase "speedy little bikes" seems intended more to disparage than to describe."

It is not a stretch. Longer chainstays significantly impact shock absorption.

"A steel frame and fork is safer on your first ride and maintains its safety much longer than carbon does." Really? Why espouse a myth? Bikes made from all materials fail and very few of them actually do fail.

So why don´t we buy used carbon forks more often?

"A Roadeo will handle a 33.3mm tire, so will my buddy's Canyon as well as pretty much every manufacturer's "endurance" frames. So maybe it is possible to design a road fork that can do what a Roadeo's will do."

Bikes are now designed to take bigger rubber. By the time that copy was written it was hard if not impossible to find road bikes which could take 700x30.

"With either kind of fork, threadless or threaded, you'll be much more comfortable---and safer---on the steel Roadeo than on any carbon bike of the same size.That doesn't mean it'll never break. Any bike can, even a steel one; and the Roadeo is a light steel one. But steel, by its nature, is safer than any other frame material, and the steel in the Roadeo is really good, strong steel. We won't sell you one if you weigh 250 pounds or more. The Roadeo is a light road bike for sub-heavyweights. It's not for everybody." Frankly, when you read all the ad copy, GP comes off as a crackpot. But you can always buy a hatchet.

Claiming a small diameter tubed, long chainstay steel frame is more comfortable than stiff carbon sounds like a crackpot? Did you ride the roadeo and compared w/ your friends Canyon? If you did and found all the claims wrong then you are right otherwise it sounds like bias. I am just using common sense. Nothing personal.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by El Chaba

Disk brakes are going to do more damage to any traditional semblance of what a road bike has been in recent years than what mountain bikes did back in the late 80's-early 90's.Rivendell as a company that produces something that falls into the broad category of retro/vintage/traditional (even if it is their own version of it) will be hard hit. I think you are only seeing the beginning of the hard times for similar companies. There will be scraps of the market left, but the market in general is shrinking as well. There will be more victims than just Rivendell....

This pretty much covers the whole thing, now add ebikes. Speaking of which, I've kitted a few Rivs with motors..the long-stays/stable-steering platform works spectacularly for that application. Grant rode one!

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by Lewis Moon

That was just the first example I came up with on a Google search for modernizing classic cars. I actually kinda like it...the guy may be a DB, and I'm not a huge fan of super low riders, but this one is pretty gorgeous.

I have bikes with smaller rims!

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by sjbraun

"The Roadeo is our answer to speedy carbon road bikes that cost the same or more, last one-fifth as long or less, and aren't as safe, comfortable, versatile or good-looking."

So before GP writes anything positive about the Roadeo, he begins by bashing modern bikes with claims that simply aren't true.
You can't win by telling your potential customers that their current bike sucks. I ride steel and carbon, so I fully appreciate the magic ride of a quality steel frame. But to say carbon bikes are unsafe or uncomfortable is just not true.

This has been Grant Peterson's MO since his Bridgestone days, and from the start of Rivendell he's only amped it up. He's always operated under the principle that, "I'm not saying that I'm right and all the other bike companies are wrong (but wink, wink, nudge, nudge, I'm right and the everybody else is wrong)." He's been able to get by for so long with this attitude, I double he'll see any reason to change.

[Joe Remi]

Everybody thinks they're right and those who see it differently are wrong. That's the basis of all internet forums!

[Black Dog]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

Everybody thinks they're right and those who see it differently are wrong. That's the basis of all internet forums!

And sadly our society as well is falling in line with this dichotomous fallacy way of thinking.

[sjbraun]

"Did you ride the roadeo and compared w/ your friends Canyon? If you did and found all the claims wrong then you are right otherwise it sounds like bias. I am just using common sense. Nothing personal'

No offense taken. I own modern bikes made of steel (Hampsten Strada Bianca,) and carbon, (Hampsten Maglia Rosa.) The carbon rides just as comfortably as the steel frame. Of course many carbon frames are stiff and ride uncomfortably, but that isn't always the case.
Speaking bias, the point I was trying to make is GP's claims are riddled with bias. I don't think espousing his biases (and denigrating the bikes his potential customers already own,) is an effective way to market his bikes.

[colker]

Originally Posted by sjbraun

"Did you ride the roadeo and compared w/ your friends Canyon? If you did and found all the claims wrong then you are right otherwise it sounds like bias. I am just using common sense. Nothing personal'

No offense taken. I own modern bikes made of steel (Hampsten Strada Bianca,) and carbon, (Hampsten Maglia Rosa.) The carbon rides just as comfortably as the steel frame. Of course many carbon frames are stiff and ride uncomfortably, but that isn't always the case.
Speaking bias, the point I was trying to make is GP's claims are riddled with bias. I don't think espousing his biases (and denigrating the bikes his potential customers already own,) is an effective way to market his bikes.

I remember when i read the copy for the Roadeo.. by that time there were a lot of stiff carbon frames around. It was the little guy versus everybody else. The eventual hyperbole was excusable. Of course there were comfortable carbon bikes too: the C40, many many Looks.... but the fact someone was still betting on a steel frame for fast performance riding sounded sweet. Now everybody is back on lightweight steel frames so picking fights w/ carbon sounds foolish.