What-a-ya think about the brochure??? (caution, Serotta content)

[charliedid]

It's not "price gouging" if nobody needs it.

[Hilltopperny]

Originally Posted by charliedid

It's not "price gouging" if nobody needs it.

Agreed, but it does seem like a poor attempt at it!

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[charliedid]

Originally Posted by Hilltopperny

Agreed, but it does seem like a poor attempt at it!

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[GParkes]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

I shot them at an event earlier this month while talking with his representative.

Plus a poster earlier in the thread surmised that Ben could learn something if he followed the thread. I've seen that thought expressed in similar threads in the past.

To PDMtong . . . I have no trouble with the opinions that are expressed. My puzzlement is at the tone that comes out every time there is a thread about whatever Ben is--or is not--doing. It comes across as snarky. But I never seem to see any justification from those airing their snark on exactly why. Did they get stiffed on a deposit when the old Serotta went under? Did he cut in front of them in the refreshment stand line at NAHBS? I just don't get it. Plus, remembering my years as a mod here, I was not the only one to notice this.

With the big deposits, he's pretty obviously trying to raise capital for his start-up. It's not exactly a unique strategy, and it's obviously worked for him in the past. So why wouldn't he try it again?

If you don't like the way he does business, then don't buy a bike from him. Go elsewhere. Simple as that. Kinda like if you don't like the off-topic thread, don't read it.

Ben has had his share of successes–and failures. These bikes are too expensive for me now, so I would probably not be buying another one. But there seems to be this undercurrent of expectation of failure that ignores the string of very real successes he achieved in running his company for as long as he did.

I'm not apologizing for him–just puzzled by the hostility that seems to come out in every thread concerning Serotta in the 17 years I've been a forum member.

BBD

Well put Dave. I have known Ben very casually since 1995. He has taken time out of his schedule to do a few small favors for me when he was in the Hudson Falls location and later the Geyser Road shop. Not worth going into, but he gained nothing for doing what he did for me. I've had two of his frames, and my ex still has a custom Nova Special built in 1990. Big fan, looking to source an older one to revive. Would I spend this kinda jack on a frame from him or anyone else? No. But the "we know better than him tone" is uncalled for. He sinks or swims. His life and business, not ours.

[Doug Fattic]

Ben and I started framebuilding in the 70's and have been friendly to each ever since. He choose a completely different business model then mine. People often speak critically of the cost of a Serotta because it is above average compared to other builders. Part of the problem in the past was because his frames passed through a bike store that took a portion of the cost. I would propose that the problem isn't that Serotta's are over priced but custom frames in general are underpriced. If a plumber or electrician made them and charged their normal rates, Ben's pricing would seem cheap.

It should also be noted that a true custom one-off frame that is designed based on a fitting can be way more time consuming than when they are made in batches. I think this is an unappreciated benefit. I can remember in the past comments on this forum that some Serottas were designed wrong because they had high handlebar heights compared to the saddle. They gave a disparaging nick name to those bicycles. That is just the reality of some that are middle aged and not all that fast anymore. They want a bicycle that is comfortable to ride and they aren't going on any fast training rides anymore.

[BBB]

Originally Posted by huck*this

A buddy of mine had a Prologue built up. He is in love!

That's a nice looking bike!

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

I'm sure many of you got the Serotta update email today.

I didn't get it, but I just saw this:

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/anno...s#.YeOARP7MK70

…Next, Serotta is lifting its complete-bicycle-only policy accommodating frameset sales on a limited basis.

Commenting on supply chain concerns, Serotta offered, "We have orders placed for all top tier component groups from the leading suppliers, but like everyone else, do not expect deliveries to match our demand. So, we've made some adjustments to our policies to make it possible for more cyclists to enjoy a new Serotta. Many cyclists wishing to purchase a new rim brake model have a garage full of wheels and highly serviceable components already in hand and simply do not need or want a completely new set of components. With supply shortages expected to continue into 2023 for disc brake models, offering frameset sales enables the determined shopper to directly source individual components from anywhere in the world."

Of course, Serotta's primary concern is always for the safety of the cyclist. Consumers who purchase framesets will have to sign an agreement that they understand and accept the risks and responsibilities inherent in the assembly of a bicycle…

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

I didn't get it, but I just saw this:

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/anno...s#.YeOARP7MK70

Never heard of such a thing.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Originally Posted by charliedid

Never heard of such a thing.

Sounds like he's guarding himself against getting sued if somebody buys a frame, assembles the bike themselves, then goes out and trashes it and alleges faulty design. I think if you're a small shop (and he is now) and have been sued before (which I bet he has in 40+ years in business) for something like this, and may be selling bikes to rich people who don't have a lot of bike expertise, then it's a legit concern.

It does happen. Why do you think you have "lawyer tabs" on your forks nowadays? That's exactly what happened.

BBD

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

Sounds like he's guarding himself against getting sued if somebody buys a frame, assembles the bike themselves, then goes out and trashes it and alleges faulty design. I think if you're a small shop (and he is now) and have been sued before (which I bet he has in 40+ years in business) for something like this, and may be selling bikes to rich people who don't have a lot of bike expertise, then it's a legit concern.

It does happen. Why do you think you have "lawyer tabs" on your forks nowadays? That's exactly what happened.

BBD

I didn't say I didn't understand it, I said I never heard of anyone requiring a liability release form when purchasing a frames. Have you?

[Mark McM]

I've bought several frames (including custom), and I've never had to sign a waiver. However, just about all the bicycles and components I've gotten have carried disclaimers that they have to be installed and/or serviced by professional mechanics. Which leads to the question - what certifications are required to become a professional mechanic? For automobiles, the automakers have their onw certification courses, and of course you have to have an FAA certification to work on airplanes. There are a few bicycle mechanics schools, like Barnett's and UBI, but how many working bicycle mechanics have been to a program like that or have any type of certification?

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I've bought several frames (including custom), and I've never had to sign a waiver. However, just about all the bicycles and components I've gotten have carried disclaimers that they have to be installed and/or serviced by professional mechanics. Which leads to the question - what certifications are required to become a professional mechanic? For automobiles, the automakers have their onw certification courses, and of course you have to have an FAA certification to work on airplanes. There are a few bicycle mechanics schools, like Barnett's and UBI, but how many working bicycle mechanics have been to a program like that or have any type of certification?

No certification required but IMO should be.

PBMA is the only place I know of https://www.probma.org/pbma-mechanic-certification.html

[AngryScientist]

Even individual components and wheels have warning labels all over them and their owner's manuals. it's ridiculous CYA stuff IMO. There is really no reason Serotta needed to publish that kind of stuff on the web site. Just quietly include a note in the paperwork with the frame that indicates pro assembly required.

and haha - if anyone should certify bike mechanics it's youtube. Watch the minimum video clips and you are a pro!

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

Even individual components and wheels have warning labels all over them and their owner's manuals. it's ridiculous CYA stuff IMO. There is really no reason Serotta needed to publish that kind of stuff on the web site. Just quietly include a note in the paperwork with the frame that indicates pro assembly required.

and haha - if anyone should certify bike mechanics it's youtube. Watch the minimum video clips and you are a pro!

You mean like the guy I watched about an hour ago because I was maybe interested in a one bolt Ritchey post? Hilarious and sad really.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by charliedid

[/B]
You mean like the guy I watched about an hour ago because I was maybe interested in a one bolt Ritchey post? Hilarious and sad really.

link please?