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Old 10-11-2017, 11:25 AM
Blown Reek Blown Reek is offline
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Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 335
You really should find out what your ideal saddle height and saddle fore-and-aft position are. Once you've got that, everything else falls into place.

You're doing some big stuff, fit-wise, and your gains might be due to using muscle groups differently, but might not be ideal for you in the long run. Once you know where you're supposed to be, everything is easy from there. For all you know, you might benefit from a zero offset post with a saddle centered on the rails, and having a setback post with the saddle oriented towards the back could be counterproductive, even if it feels good right now. But, you'll never know if you're throwing anything and everything at the wall to see what sticks.

I was first fit about 10 years ago, and that really changed the position that I thought worked for me for the 10 years previous (using the Serotta fit system and SerottaCycle). Of course, after a while when I started to do the frameset-and-parts shuffle, my "ideal" numbers weren't as ideal, since it was more of an "old-school" fit that used the "expertise" of the fitter, and I didn't have the "numbers" to work off of. And since that time, Retul came along and quantified everything for me, and all of a sudden, every "problem" that I was chasing ended (that was about 6 years ago).

Now, since I know the saddle height and fore-and-aft that works for me, I can build up a bike and be within a couple of millimeters of where I need to be (at most). And since that can be a function of the chamois thickness, a couple of mm doesn't matter (as well as the natural movement of the rider on the bike). From there, depending on the top tube length (or reach), I can adjust the stem length as needed. Voila... new bike, same accurate fit.

Go get fit. Someone knows more than you do, and you should listen to then. Then, you can waste your time riding your bike instead of wasting it trying to get comfortable.
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:14 PM
Wayne77's Avatar
Wayne77 Wayne77 is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SLC, Utah
Posts: 1,558
I haven't read all the posts yet, but few general rules of thumb to think about when comparing two already built frames. Perhaps others have already touched on this.

- Don't forget to account for BB drop. If you have two frames with otherwise identical numbers, if one has a BB drop that is 8cm and one that is 7cm, you'll be sitting a little "lower" in the front triangle with the 8cm drop frame (since your saddle height is a constant) that will typically result in 1cm less saddle to bar drop on the bike with the lower BB

- Account for STA. A steeper STA will have a l longer effective reach than a slack STA (if both frames have the same effective TT length). Its counterintuitive but since your setback is a constant, you'd have to move the saddle back to compensate for the steeper STA compared to the bike with the slacker STA. If I remember correctly, don't quote me, but I think a 73.5 STA results in something close to 1cm additional effective reach compared to the same frame with a 72.5 STA.

- Same applies (to a lesser extent) when comparing frames with slack vs steep HT angles. A slack HTA brings the bars a little closer.

- Long story short, when shopping a new off the shelf frame, comparing to another existing frame, a lot of people compare effective TT length and HT height only...without accounting for angles that can change things quite a bit when you add it all up. **note that none of this addresses bike handling impact, ride characteristics, etc. STA, HTA, drop etc definitely have some impact there, but I'm not qualified to make definitive statements there...I'll leave that to frame builders or other experts.

One last thing: I have a spreadsheet that does a pretty good job comparing frame measurements, even plotting the two frames overlayed so you can visually see where the contact points differ. Its not perfect by any means, but it serves as a pretty good initial pass. Can't remember where I got it. A few screen shots attached. If anyone wants it, I'd be glad to email it over...just send me a PM
Attached Images
File Type: jpg screenshot 1.jpg (131.2 KB, 168 views)
File Type: jpg screenshot 2.jpg (88.3 KB, 172 views)

Last edited by Wayne77; 10-11-2017 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:39 AM
Clean39T Clean39T is online now
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Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,521
Trials and tribulations of fitting myself

@Blown_Reek and @Wayne77 - thank you for the thoughts...all good stuff. I got in contact today with a local fitter who does both stationary and outdoors sessions as part of the fit. I like what he had to say initially and am going to get together with him next weekend or shortly thereafter. I have used that bike geometry comparison tool, but as was said, without a good starting place in terms of setback and saddle height, it's easy to get lost quick. Hopefully that all gets cleared up soon...

Last edited by Clean39T; 10-12-2017 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 10-16-2017, 02:46 PM
chiasticon chiasticon is online now
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Location: northeast ohio
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I see the Campy group off the Peg is for sale. so what's the story? is the Peg going too? did you learn more about what will work for your fit?
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:19 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is online now
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Trials and tribulations of fitting myself

Originally Posted by chiasticon View Post
I see the Campy group off the Peg is for sale. so what's the story? is the Peg going too? did you learn more about what will work for your fit?

Still waiting on my fit, and also have feelers out for a professional HT snip. After 75mi on the Bowman with the extra 4cm drop, it's pretty clear that's a big part of my fit issue on this. If I can't (or don't want to) cut the HT on the Peg, it's getting sold. I'm pretty sure at this point the reach and setback are within range, and it's the drop that is throwing things off...

The group is getting offered just because I have too many spares and likely won't be riding the Peg for a while - doesn't factor into the keep or not decision.

Edit 10/24/17 :: I decided to let the Pegoretti go to a Paceline'r who wanted to ride the frame with the HT as-is. End of the day, I didn't want to mess with what Dario spec'd, or have it look weird. And other than the attachment to the beauty of the bike, I'm not out anything much - bought low, passed on the good deal - and all is well. I'm glad I got to put the rides in on it that I did though. I now know the joys of modern steel. And if I can justify spending the money, I know what I'd ask of any one of a couple builders.. Plus, it led in a roundabout way to rediscovering that more drop is what I'm after in my go-fast bike. Good stuff - and thank you to those who provided feedback and insight as I grappled with the fit and decisions.

Last edited by Clean39T; 10-25-2017 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:35 PM
hollowgram5 hollowgram5 is online now
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,007
I just read through your thread and I can definitely empathize with your fit issues. I was there years ago, and started out riding on a slightly smaller frame in hopes that being more compact would make me faster. Fastfoward almost 10 years of riding and working in 4 different shops, I found that my position is different based on different geos (this was before "stack" and "reach" became part of the standard vocab), and different types of bikes (duh on my part).

I have had the opportunity to go through a Guru Fit with the v2 machine at a shop in GA that I helped out at on the weekends. The fit process ended up putting me within a half cm of where I was already at on my bike. That hasn't really changed much since either. I notice more differences in BB drop between different road bikes now than I ever did before.

Example: The Holland and my SystemSix/CAAD9 are substantially different in BB drop, but headtubes and top tubes are pretty close to being the same. I noticed the BB as I was building, but I can feel the difference on the bike as well. What that translated to (to me) was that the Holland is a stellar bike to ride for long days; the bb is lower, and makes for an extremely stable bike. The Cannondales are more race oriented, as is the Koga-Miyata MAX frame. The days I wanna go fast, I grab a C-dale or the Koga. There are days I just wanna ride, I grab the Holland, or maybe the Tommasini (but just because its so gorgeous).

When I lived in SD, I took the train to Anaheim and rode back for my 30th birthday with a couple buddies. By the time we got back it was 115 miles and I went to find 15 more; 100 miles + my age. That was the first (and only so far) time I was able to even attempt that kind of ride, but it was an awesome treat. That ride was done on the SystemSix without a single fit issue. It's a bike I'd been on for the previous 5 total years of riding road.

I would echo what others have said thus far. I've been through a variety of injuries, including some fairly serious back injuries, and you need to get comfortable with your body on the bike first. I was able to do that (while in college before I had disposable income) and it was truly a benefit because now I know what fits, how it fits, and what doesn't and why. Lucky for me, the GF doesn't really have an issue with all my bikes, but I've kept the total below 10 so far. You definitely need to be patient; it's not rocket science, but it does take asking for the help, and allowing time for the body to adjust as you move your position around as well!
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