Mountain lion attack

[Scuzzer]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Revenge, punishment certainly enters into this equation, doing ‘something to stop this awful attack from happening again ’, demonizing the animal. ‘Something wrong with it’ to ‘taste of humans’...they are worried this animal might kill another person. That fallout would have caused people to lose their jobs...even if this IS the second one in 94 years.

Sorry, looks like I missed this reply. Not sure what you're arguing but they kill 250 blameless cougars a year. Rationally I would put this one first on the list and the other 249 all tied for second. If they killed zero per year I think we could have a different conversation.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by whateveronfire

Oh, and by the way, the culling of mountain lions in Arizona, Nevada, and Utah has caused an explosion in the mustang population that, in turn, is causing both overgrazing and starvation of the horses. No one likes to think about lions killing horses, but much like the wolves in yellowstone, the ecosystem would be healthier if we didn't kill semi-apex predators.

Oregon has a huge cougar population (about-6 to 7,000) and a large wild horse population (about 4,500). Wild horses are really too big of a prey animal for cougars unless they can kill young animals. The Oregon dept of fish and wildlife don't even mention cougar predation of horses https://www.dfw.state.or.us/wildlife...ement_Plan.pdf

Cougars rarely kill Elk which are about the same size as horses. Wild horses are protected by a 1971 law that prohibits the federal government from killing them even though most everyone will admit that there are way too many wild horses.

No matter what, humans are always changing the balance of nature.

[Mikej]

This sounds like we need more government involvement- that’ll show us.

[peanutgallery]

The only cougar I'm afraid of wears a tube top and hangs out at my local brew pub on Thursday nights

20 North American fatalities since 1890, I'll take my chances. Going for a ride is rarely like The Revenant

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._North_America

[whateveronfire]

Originally Posted by gasman

Oregon has a huge cougar population (about-6 to 7,000) and a large wild horse population (about 4,500). Wild horses are really too big of a prey animal for cougars unless they can kill young animals.

I was basing what I said on a recent NY Times article, but I think your point is well taken. Pumas are mid-level predators and are likely to go after prey that they can be sure to kill.

Just for reference, the article I was thinking of:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/12/s...at-horses.html

[Scuzzer]

Originally Posted by peanutgallery

20 North American fatalities since 1890, I'll take my chances. Going for a ride is rarely like The Revenant

Totally agree. The only time I ran across one was when my buddy was 20 yards up the trail at Bergen and he suddenly stopped and said "holy s**t!". He saw the mtn lion but it ran off, we stood around for a few minutes and then sheepishly rode back to the car.

I didn't even see it.

[p nut]

Originally Posted by peanutgallery

The only cougar I'm afraid of wears a tube top and hangs out at my local brew pub on Thursday nights

20 North American fatalities since 1890, I'll take my chances. Going for a ride is rarely like The Revenant

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._North_America

Two of my friends were talking one day about cougar attacks. One told the other he was so scared of cougars that he’s thinking of packing a gun. The other, who works for BLM, said you have a higher chance of getting killed by a vending machine. So I looked it up:

“According to the Consumer Product Safety Commission, these heavy food dispensers have been responsible for “at least 37 deaths and 113 injuries since 1978."

Averages out to something like 2.1 deaths per year.

[Climb01742]

And once a vending machine loses its fear of humans...

[peanutgallery]

Check out the stats for dogs
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fata..._United_States

Originally Posted by p nut

Two of my friends were talking one day about cougar attacks. One told the other he was so scared of cougars that he’s thinking of packing a gun. The other, who works for BLM, said you have a higher chance of getting killed by a vending machine. So I looked it up:

“According to the Consumer Product Safety Commission, these heavy food dispensers have been responsible for “at least 37 deaths and 113 injuries since 1978."

Averages out to something like 2.1 deaths per year.

[BobO]

http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks.html#stats

Deaths are not the only metric when discussing the dangers of a wild animal. Attacks are rare but they do happen.

[Kirk007]

From the experts: two carnivore biologists in Washington in contact with the Washington Fish and Game team.

1. Very unusual aberational incident.

2. Cougar was emaciated but not starving; similar condition to many young toms who are dispersing and chased out of territories by older males and who manage to survive without attacking humans.

3. Cougar is being tested for all concievable disease etc.

4. What bikers did right: stop, confront.

5. What bikers could have done better: After initial confrontation and cougar left, apparently bikers hung out for a little while (probably going holy sh8T!!!, etc. and then started to remount bikes). What they perhaps could have done: rapidly backed out of the area, facing the cougar and direction it departed then when cougar out of sight hopping on bikes and sprinting out of the region.

6. Murky part: what happened when cougar returned. Injured biker attacked and grabbed by head. Second biker, either panicking (probably) or altruistic (who knows) runs off screaming towards the woods. Cougar drops biker one, pursues biker 2 and attacks. Biker 1 gets on bike and rides off. Biker 2 dragged into the woods and dies at some point.

7. Expert speculation: If biker 1, who was probably in shock at this point had ridden towards cougar and biker 2 could the cougar have been runoff and biker 2 saved? Who knows, and talk about asking a lot of biker 1.

8. Biggest take home: If you are going to ride or be out in cougar and bear country, take bear spray. Of all factors, bear spray likely would have changed the outcome here.

9. Next biggest take home: you recreate in wild country and you are taking risks. Be smart, own the risk or stay out of the woods. This part of Washington is, I learned today, the best cougar and bear habitat in the state!

One other interesting story: They talked about the mountain biker killed by sow grizzly outside Glacier Park about a year ago. I had assumed that biker surprised mom with 2 cubs and mom attacked. Actually the biker apparently physically ran right into the bear on the trail. Biker died of broken neck but they don't know whether it was blunt force trauma on impact or bear reacting to being hit by the bike. I don't remember if they killed that bear. I hope not.

As to the killing of the cougar: ethical right and wrongs go out the window; the amount of pressure the public would assert on Fish and Game if it didn't kill the cougar is too great for an agency that is already right leaning and predisposed based on antiquated approaches to wildlife management to not react by killing the cougar. Strike back mentality rules. As sad and perhaps wrong for this individual, not killing it would probably be worse for cougars in general as there would be calls for increased take by hunting etc., etc. No winners here, not humans, not cougars.

[weisan]

Thanks Kirk pal.

[gasman]

Thanks for the info Greg. I don’t see how biker 1 could have mentally kept it together enough to chase after the cougar.

Of course, if you include the sodas in vending machines, the machines kill way more individuals yearly.

[Kirk007]

Originally Posted by gasman

Thanks for the info Greg. I don’t see how biker 1 could have mentally kept it together enough to chase after the cougar.

Of course, if you include the sodas in vending machines, the machines kill way more individuals yearly.

And don't get me started on the killer deer; far away the most lethal wild animal in the United States (deer-vehicular collisions - eg. today reported in NC that 2 dead, twelve injured when church van collides with deer).

[sitzmark]

Originally Posted by Kirk007

Well I'd disagree on the second point. There is no biological reason for humans "to control" carnivore populations. They are very capable self regulators. Indeed more and more studies are showing it does more harm than good.

These are smart animals. An older tom (male) cougar may well have learned, through human presence, threatened conflict, to avoid farms and killing animals like goats. If the male is killed, a younger Tom will move into the territory (males are very territorial - the cougar wandering through Wisconsin probably originated from the Dakotas and was displaced and moving in search of a mate and territory. The problem for these males moving east is that females tend to stay closer to their region of birth and don't disperse as far so its hard for these males wandering east to find a female). That younger tom may get himself in trouble. Here, we are talking about a relatively young male cougar that was emaciated (second report this morning confirming). He was, if not otherwise diseased, hungry, apparently hungry enough to risk bodily harm in a conflict to feed.

There is a hunting season only because some people like to kill animals for sport. No one eats cougar meat. There is no reasonable use for a cougar pelt (i.e. I don't think rugs or mounted heads count).

Can disagree, but it's a true statement. WA statute provides for legal hunting of Cats.

I suspect the origins of the legislation are economic-driven and have nothing to do with biologic justification - can't say for sure, wasn't part of the process. I do know that many years ago my relatives in CO who were ranchers killed predators on sight to protect their investment in livestock. Had noting to do with killing animals for sport or trophies over the fireplace - purely economic. It's only logical that at some point such a practice leads to a conflict of constituencies and legislative efforts to address the concerns of all sides. For good or bad, the killing of Cats is now "controlled" by law. Some people follow laws and some people don't. Some people find ways to exploit laws for personal or commercial gain...