What was the first top shifting groupset?

[Mark McM]

As has been noted, there was no single transition from down tube friction shifters to indexed integrated brake/shifter levers. And, of course, neither indexed shifting and integrated brake/shifter levers immediately replaced previous systems - in both cases, they were introduced on top tier component groups, and then filtered down to lower level groups in the following years.

There had been several attempts at indexed derailleur shifting for decades, but the first widely distributed system was the Shimano Positron system from the mid-'70s. This was only used on low-end groups, and it did not work very well, so was abandoned in the early '80s. The first successful indexed system was introduced with the '85 Shimano Dura-Ace SIS system. Campagnolo attempted to follow in '87 with their indexed Syncro down tube shifter system, but this system performed poorly, and was abandoned by '91 or '92. The first success Campagnolo indexed shifting system was released essentially concurrently with their Ergo-power integrated brake/shifter levers.

So, if you want to stick with Campagnolo, and in particular the Record groupset, then you could choose C-Record downtube (7spd) friction shifters as the last popular down tube shifters, and '92 Ergo-power 8spd as the first popular handlebar mounted shifters.

[Kontact]

Even after Campy reformatted their shifting for better indexing with Shimano shaped derailleurs, pros were still using DT shifters. 1991 TDF, C-Record:



1992 TDF, Dura Ace:

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Kontact

Even after Campy reformatted their shifting for better indexing with Shimano shaped derailleurs, pros were still using DT shifters.

And for a few years some were even using mis-matched shifters - they'd use an integrated brake/shifter for the right lever (rear derailleur), and a down tube shifter for the left lever (front derailleur). This was before the UCI bike weight limit, when they were concerned about the extra weight of integrated brake/shift levers.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

And for a few years some were even using mis-matched shifters - they'd use an integrated brake/shifter for the right lever (rear derailleur), and a down tube shifter for the left lever (front derailleur). This was before the UCI bike weight limit, when they were concerned about the extra weight of integrated brake/shift levers.

I almost posted a 1993 TDF picture of Lance doing exactly that. Plus, that was how Zap was set up.

[dddd]

As far as the shifter itself was concerned, I think of Synchro shifters as totally state of the art, at least in the sense that the indexing mechanism was essentially as it is today. True, the derailer that arrived at apparently the same(?) time as the Ergolever was suddenly much more advanced, and by this time I believe that the current Shimano-esque style of Campagnolo cog tooth profiling was also available, if not sooner.
So I have to wonder then, just what kind of derailers, chains and sprockets were actually on the bikes of those last few top pro's who were still using downtube levers, even as downtube levers hardly exploited the advantages of those newer peripheral parts to the same degree that the integrated levers did.

I am of the seemingly obvious opinion that the new peripheral parts were a virtual necessity with Ergolevers (or STI), and that at some point (and with the right chain and sprockets) that some of the Synchro DT gruppos (including the lowly Xenon 7s, ...and the early Athena gruppo it was copied from) did in fact work really well.

Admittedly, I am going by what I remember of several gruppos I've ridden that did have the benefit of HG-Narrow chain (or 9s chain) and UG cogs, which of course were not actually part of the Campagnolo Synchro gruppos, but their own compatibility charts did spell out the inclusion of Shimano's newer HG narrow chain and UG freewheels, which I have found to work quite well with Synchro if the right choice of indexing ring is made.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by dddd

As far as the shifter itself was concerned, I think of Synchro shifters as totally state of the art, at least in the sense that the indexing mechanism was essentially as it is today. True, the derailer that arrived at apparently the same(?) time as the Ergolever was suddenly much more advanced, and by this time I believe that the current Shimano-esque style of Campagnolo cog tooth profiling was also available, if not sooner.
So I have to wonder then, just what kind of derailers, chains and sprockets were actually on the bikes of those last few top pro's who were still using downtube levers, even as downtube levers hardly exploited the advantages of those newer peripheral parts to the same degree that the integrated levers did.

I am of the seemingly obvious opinion that the new peripheral parts were a virtual necessity with Ergolevers (or STI), and that at some point (and with the right chain and sprockets) that some of the Synchro DT gruppos (including the lowly Xenon 7s, ...and the early Athena gruppo it was copied from) did in fact work really well.

Admittedly, I am going by what I remember of several gruppos I've ridden that did have the benefit of HG-Narrow chain (or 9s chain) and UG cogs, which of course were not actually part of the Campagnolo Synchro gruppos, but their own compatibility charts did spell out the inclusion of Shimano's newer HG narrow chain and UG freewheels, which I have found to work quite well with Synchro if the right choice of indexing ring is made.

All the dedicated 8 speed groups you're referring to had in group sprockets and chains. That happened before bar shifters for all brands.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=Kontact;2367630]Even after Campy reformatted their shifting for better indexing with Shimano shaped derailleurs, pros were still using DT shifters. 1991 TDF, C-Record:

That was because Valentino actually thought 'index' shifting...CDA, A-B Chorus, Athena..Syncro 1 and 2 DT shifters was the stuff of cyclotourists and 'real' enthusiasts would opt for RetroFriction down tube shifters(big barrel for 8s) mated to a more modern CRecord rear ders...why the 'pros in very early 90s, just before ERGO, used friction shifters..Oh boy, was Valentino wrong...

As for above..7 and 8s Campag index systems a lot of times used a Rohloff chain, 'modern' slant parallelogram rear ders(not CDA, A-B chorus)..and first gen 'alphabet' cogs. 1994 saw 'Exa-Drive cogs(and they fit onto Older Campag casette hubs, unlike shimano UG to HG hubs) and also pinned/ramped chainrings.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by dddd

As far as the shifter itself was concerned, I think of Synchro shifters as totally state of the art, at least in the sense that the indexing mechanism was essentially as it is today.

I'd actually argue a bit differently. It is true that Syncro shifters used a mechanism essentially the same as that in the indexed shifters that followed. But indexed shifting requires an entire system - you can't get reliable indexed shifting with just the shift levers alone. Shimano realized this, which is why they introduced their SIS (Shimano Integrated System) as a complete system - shifters, derailleurs*, sprockets and chain. Campagnolo apparently didn't initially understand this, or they would not have tried to get their Syncro levers to work with non-index compatible drivetrains. Campagnolo's next attempt at indexed shifting (Ergo-power) worked because they released it as part of an entire new drivetrain (shifters, derailleurs, sprockets and chain were all new, and designed to work as a unit).

Originally Posted by dddd

True, the derailer that arrived at apparently the same(?) time as the Ergolever was suddenly much more advanced, and by this time I believe that the current Shimano-esque style of Campagnolo cog tooth profiling was also available, if not sooner.

Here again Campagnolo was a bit of a follower. Their Exa-Drive sprockets, which were similar to Shimano's HyperGlide sprockets, were released in 1994, two years after Ergopower was release. (Similarly, Shimano was still using Uni-Glide sprockets with their road groups when they introduced their STI brake/shift levers, and didn't bring HyperGlide to their road groups until the following year.)**



*One of the keys to successful indexed shifting is having a derailleur which maintains a constant chain gap, which is the distance between the sprockets and the jockey pulley. This function was best achieved with a slant parallelogram derailleur, which was patented by Suntour. Shimano, not one to pay patent licensing fees, apparently waited to release their SIS indexing system until the Suntour patent expired, freeing them (and everyone else) to make slant parallelogram derailleurs.

**Historical side note: Unlike previous cassette sprockets, HyperGlide and Exa-Drive required the sprockets to be installed in a specific alignment. Previously, Shimano and Campagnolo freehubs and sprockets had used uniform width splines. To guarantee correct sprocket alignment, the width of one the freehub spline grooves and its corresponding sprocket spline tooth was modified, so that the sprockets could only go on in one orientation. Shimano chose to widen one freehub spline groove and sprocket spline tooth - this prevented the newer HyperGlide to be used on older freehubs, and essentially forced customers to buy new wheels if they wanted to used HyperGlide cassettes. In contrast, Campagnolo chose to narrow one freehub spline groove and sprocket spline tooth - this allowed customers to fit the new Exa-Drive cassettes onto their older wheels.

[weisan]

[Bostic]

The first time I saw Shimano STI was an ad with Davis Phinney for "The Dual Control Lever" or something to that effect. The first time I thought
'I want this" was the 1992 Trek Catalog with the brand new Black 5500 8 speed Dura-Ace group. Being young and poor I had to settle for the weird colored carbon/mustard 7 speed down tube 105 2100 model.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

That was because Valentino actually thought 'index' shifting...CDA, A-B Chorus, Athena..Syncro 1 and 2 DT shifters was the stuff of cyclotourists and 'real' enthusiasts would opt for RetroFriction down tube shifters(big barrel for 8s) mated to a more modern CRecord rear ders...why the 'pros in very early 90s, just before ERGO, used friction shifters..Oh boy, was Valentino wrong...

As for above..7 and 8s Campag index systems a lot of times used a Rohloff chain, 'modern' slant parallelogram rear ders(not CDA, A-B chorus)..and first gen 'alphabet' cogs. 1994 saw 'Exa-Drive cogs(and they fit onto Older Campag casette hubs, unlike shimano UG to HG hubs) and also pinned/ramped chainrings.

Was Valentino wrong about pros and friction shifting? Do we know that the folks in 1991 and 1992 that have the ability to index weren't using using retrofriction or had their DA levers set to friction mode? One of the pro objections to indexing was the noise telegraphing the rider's next move.

That 1991 picture I posted of Lemond looks more like a Campy Retrofriction shifter than a Syncro mounted on his DT.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of pros didn't use indexing until they jumped to STI/Ergo/Zap/Gripshift systems that didn't have friction modes. I recall even amateurs in the early '90s with 105 equipped bikes using the friction mode on their DTs for racing.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I'd actually argue a bit differently. It is true that Syncro shifters used a mechanism essentially the same as that in the indexed shifters that followed. But indexed shifting requires an entire system - you can't get reliable indexed shifting with just the shift levers alone. Shimano realized this, which is why they introduced their SIS (Shimano Integrated System) as a complete system - shifters, derailleurs*, sprockets and chain. Campagnolo apparently didn't initially understand this, or they would not have tried to get their Syncro levers to work with non-index compatible drivetrains. Campagnolo's next attempt at indexed shifting (Ergo-power) worked because they released it as part of an entire new drivetrain (shifters, derailleurs, sprockets and chain were all new, and designed to work as a unit).

What's interesting here is that the original shift pull ratios used from Syncho I and II was retained into the Shimano-style era with Athena and Xenon. In the 1991 Campy catalog these two groups got 7 speed freehubs and Rohloff chains but retained the '80s designed rear derailleurs and small barrel index shifters, while Chorus, Croce and C-Record got the new pull ratio.

There was also some overlap as their MTB line was compatible with Athena, so those Shimano style derailleurs weren't initially on the large barrel shifter ratio either.


I wish Campy had re-developed the original Athena and Croce derailleurs to work with larger barrel shifters instead of just going to the Shimano design. Those slant parallelogram derailleurs accomplished the goal of getting the jockey pulley to track close to the cogs without making the parallelogram nearly horizontal.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Kontact

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of pros didn't use indexing until they jumped to STI/Ergo/Zap/Gripshift systems that didn't have friction modes. I recall even amateurs in the early '90s with 105 equipped bikes using the friction mode on their DTs for racing.

I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case. One of the prominent features of early indexed (down tube) shifters was retaining the ability to revert to friction mode. At the time, it was thought that indexing could be finicky, and therefore a potential liability, so it was thought to be desirable to have a friction mode available as a backup (many wouldn't buy an indexed shifter that didn't have a friction setting). For those who had honed their friction shifting skills over many years and miles, indexed down tube shifters was only a marginal improvement.

The real advance came with dual control shifters, which allowed riders to shift at any time, including in the middle of a sprint or while standing on the pedals. The precision hand motion required for friction shifting would be difficult to do with dual control shifting (especially when sprinting or standing), so dual control shifters virtually requires indexing. At first, there was still a little consternation about having no friction backup in dual control shifting, but indexed shifting soon showed itself to be quite reliable, and people forgot about wanting a friction backup.

[hampco]

Back in November 1989 I flew to Tokyo with Andy for an exhibition race and a look at the World Championship road course at Utsunomiya. The first night we arrived some technicians from Shimano showed up, whisked Andy's bike away, and returned it in the morning. It had the first-ever set STI shifters and a pair of crudely-machined dual pivot calipers. The front der didn't have a trim function but everything else worked. Good times...

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case. One of the prominent features of early indexed (down tube) shifters was retaining the ability to revert to friction mode. At the time, it was thought that indexing could be finicky, and therefore a potential liability, so it was thought to be desirable to have a friction mode available as a backup (many wouldn't buy an indexed shifter that didn't have a friction setting). For those who had honed their friction shifting skills over many years and miles, indexed down tube shifters was only a marginal improvement.

The real advance came with dual control shifters, which allowed riders to shift at any time, including in the middle of a sprint or while standing on the pedals. The precision hand motion required for friction shifting would be difficult to do with dual control shifting (especially when sprinting or standing), so dual control shifters virtually requires indexing. At first, there was still a little consternation about having no friction backup in dual control shifting, but indexed shifting soon showed itself to be quite reliable, and people forgot about wanting a friction backup.

Kinda/sorta. Suntour Command shifters can be run on friction while retaining the same return to center operation as dual control does. Same with Ergo for the front derailleur, as well as some versions of Gripshift. So indexing isn't a necessity for this type of shifter.


And the "finicky" thing never really left us - virtually all road bikes using on the bar shifters have a tension adjustment barrel in easy reach of the rider, like all those DT boss cable stops that came with Shimano and Campy bar shifters. So I wouldn't say everyone started to trust their indexing absolutely, they just went from on-the-fly friction to on-the-fly tension adjustment to deal minor derailleur bangs and poor planning.

I like how Campy went from secondary lever on Syncro 1, to a knurled ring on II and then finally to a miniature tension adjuster on the last DT/bar end shifters.