Custom Frames and New Builders

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by jtakeda

Totally superficial. But social media in general is the new way to completely control how the public perceives your image/brand etc. and it’s really easy to hide your mistakes in a 1x2 picture.

You’d be surprised what kind of idiotic purchase people make off of social media.

I’m going to use this as a very general example but the Contax T2 is a great camera. It always has been. I’ve had a couple—and sold them and recognize the quality. A few years back one of the Jenner’s (I’m not sure which one) started carrying one around and the price sky rocketed.

I just sold my friends T2 data back for $1000. I completely attribute this to an “influencer” signaling that this product was “cool”

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison but the connection I’m trying to make is that these social media presences do have an effect on people’s perception.

This is an excellent point. I've always been smitten with Speedvagen and Breadwinner. They were (are) the personification of "cool" to me. I have no first-hand experience with either of the frames. But their branding and social media presence is nonpareil. The messaging is highly aspirational (the Speedvagen is meant to be raced hard and covered in 'sweat, snot, and blood')

I'm sure they're great bikes, and I have no quibbles with the builders, but in the end, for my last "dream" bike, I'm going with a builder who built another frame I already own, and is a hell of a nice guy. He's really down to earth, and is also a family man, which matters to me now that I have kids.

[pdmtong]

while it seems reasonable that a new builder might charge "less" than an established builder for a frame, at what point and under what criteria does it then become ok for said builder to now claim "expertise" and charge what the "big boys" charge?

[d_douglas]

Originally Posted by pdmtong

while it seems reasonable that a new builder might charge "less" than an established builder for a frame, at what point and under what criteria does it then become ok for said builder to now claim "expertise" and charge what the "big boys" charge?

Yes, when do people like Zanconato, Kris Henry, and the many many others out there get to say, " OK, now I am an 'experienced' builder - I want to charge $4500 for a frameset'?

Its tough to make that leap and go from $3300 to $4500 and just say that you are now a 'pro' (which I believe they both are and they were both on my shortlist for that shelved dream bike).

[GParkes]

OK, I'm a frame whore. I won't go in to details, but I've looked at more builders over the years than I can justify - mostly for design and construction techniques. If anyone thinks they want a custom frame at a reasonable price and has to settle for a "new" builder or one with limited experience, that person is wrong.

Curtlo (Doug Curtiss) - 40 years of experience
Andy Gilmour - 45 years of experience, steel/Ti/Alu (I have one of his frames)

If you want to spend in excess of $3-4K for a highly regarded/known builder, do it (I have, thank you DK). But the aforementioned builders will leave you very satisfied, with some $$ in your wallet for other things.

G

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by pdmtong

while it seems reasonable that a new builder might charge "less" than an established builder for a frame, at what point and under what criteria does it then become ok for said builder to now claim "expertise" and charge what the "big boys" charge?

You price to meet your demand. If you've got more buyers than you've got time to build for, you raise your prices. You don't need to claim expertise. You can have built 5 frames or 500.

[PaMtbRider]

Originally Posted by d_douglas

Yes, when do people like Zanconato, Kris Henry, and the many many others out there get to say, " OK, now I am an 'experienced' builder - I want to charge $4500 for a frameset'?

Its tough to make that leap and go from $3300 to $4500 and just say that you are now a 'pro' (which I believe they both are and they were both on my shortlist for that shelved dream bike).

Wait, STOP! What are you saying. It's ok if WE know Kris Henry and Mike Zanconato are pros and are under charging but you're not supposed to tell them. At least not until Mike is done with my bike.

[zambenini]

Originally Posted by GParkes

OK, I'm a frame whore. I won't go in to details, but I've looked at more builders over the years than I can justify - mostly for design and construction techniques. If anyone thinks they want a custom frame at a reasonable price and has to settle for a "new" builder or one with limited experience, that person is wrong.



Curtlo (Doug Curtiss) - 40 years of experience

Andy Gilmour - 45 years of experience, steel/Ti/Alu (I have one of his frames)



If you want to spend in excess of $3-4K for a highly regarded/known builder, do it (I have, thank you DK). But the aforementioned builders will leave you very satisfied, with some $$ in your wallet for other things.



G

That's dead on. Paul Sadoff, too. The market is also crowded at 3K while there is killer stuff around 2k. Sure builders can make that price jump but then suddenly every bike has to have a curved top tube, deluxe fade paint job, and about 9 extra hours worth of social media interaction attached to it. (I like curved top tubes no shade there). But It's probably quite a game to charge 3300 bucks for a frame. not saying the frame isn't worth it. Just that it might not be worth the builder's trouble to go up market. Like was pointed out across the hall re Red Hook, sometimes success is a headache for a brand.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[colker]

Looks to me like a bubble made of a lot of non sense. There i said it.

[John H.]

Facebook, Instagram and Social Media have been the tide that raises all ships.

Before Social Media you could get a Lobster, Zanc, Steve Rex, Primus Mootry and many other fine handmade custom frames for 1k or less.

And all of this meant a new builder pretty much had to give his frames away for cost of tubes and paint.

[colker]

Originally Posted by John H.

Facebook, Instagram and Social Media have been the tide that raises all ships.

Before Social Media you could get a Lobster, Zanc, Steve Rex, Primus Mootry and many other fine handmade custom frames for 1k or less.

I have been slowly unplugging from social media. Ime there is nothing there except wrong after wrong.
It is svcking all good out of life. It is destroying politics and democracy in every country.
Now it´s creating bubbles on cycling, photography etcetera.

[unterhausen]

Originally Posted by John H.

And all of this meant a new builder pretty much had to give his frames away for cost of tubes and paint.

I always figured someone that isn't charging $5000 for a frame with wet paint is just barely charging the margins it takes for a sustainable business. As someone pointed out above, there are established builders still charging less than $2k for a frame/fork. My guess is they can do that because they married into health insurance. But a lot of builders have a real job. So they are building in their spare time as a second job. I like to build frames, but I like to ride more.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by colker

Looks to me like a bubble made of a lot of non sense. There i said it.

I don't think it's a bubble. Nobody is buying custom with an expectation their bike will increase in value in the future, and the price of most custom frames is at or below that of similar high end mass-produced frames. For every boutique frame I see out on my rides, I see countless S-Works Tarmacs or Trek Madones that are just as expensive as a Kirk or Crumpton.

Economic conditions are good, so certainly people are spending more freely than they were 10 years ago, and likely bikes will suffer in the next economic downturn, but there's no reason to think there is anything inherently wrong with the bike market right now.

[unterhausen]

the bubble popped. Although I hear that framebuilding classes are really popular right now, so a batch of new people are showing up to under-charge for their work. It's like a pyramid scheme in that it looks a lot better from the outside.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by John H.

Facebook, Instagram and Social Media have been the tide that raises all ships.

Before Social Media you could get a Lobster, Zanc, Steve Rex, Primus Mootry and many other fine handmade custom frames for 1k or less.

And all of this meant a new builder pretty much had to give his frames away for cost of tubes and paint.

Before social media was a long time ago...

Costs for everything have gone up. It is what it is.

If you like custom bikes and have the means, get one. It's only money. Life is short. Vote w your checkbook. Yafda yaffa.

[d_douglas]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Before social media was a long time ago...

Costs for everything have gone up. It is what it is.

If you like custom bikes and have the means, get one. It's only money. Life is short. Vote w your checkbook. Yafda yaffa.

Yes, those days are long past.:.