Rivendell saved for now...

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

If you want a fight you're gonna get it. I asked you a question you couldn't answer. Let it go.

No fighting from me Joe, I'm glad you're here actually. I answered it fully, the only thing that Riv added to offerings you could find elsewhere was the dogma.

You're passionate about this and I respect that, honestly, but you can't candy coat the past or the present. It's bad Joe and there's no sign of it getting better. And doubling down on the "philosophy" does naught for the business.

Riv needs an honest voice now, things aren't right and they will never be without change.

[providence]

I’ve purchased parts from Riv a handful of times, mostly Nitto stuff that I couldn’t find really anywhere stateside at that particular time. Really don’t have anything good/bad to say about the experience. They had something that most didn’t at the time but paid on the high side of what it could found for (fine) and shipping was adequate to slow (also fine).

In theory, I would be part of the group they market to. Early 30’s rider with some disposable income, who has all steel (vintage) that is just out for a fun scenic ride mostly by myself on mixed terrain. Not beholden to modern or vintage components, I’ll ride what functions well and looks good. Problem is, if I’m shopping for parts, they’re one of the last resorts based on price and speed of shipping. If I’m looking for a frame, aesthetically nothing appeals to me. If I’m going to drop that much money on a custom, I’m going down the road to Chris Kvale who will build and paint a frame that is so far beyond what Riv could do in terms of quality for negligible difference in price. I could also replicate the spirit of a lot of what Riv does on a much cheaper vintage bike (and feel I have done so on my Schwinn Cimarron). And then you have the blog which just is so off putting.

Frankly, I’ve owned and built up several Grant-era Bridgestones given the mass appeal. I’ve ended up selling every one. None road what I would consider well. Even though they did look the part, below is my RB-T.



Grant certainly deserves respect for what he’s done. I feel Bridgestone were sound bikes for what they were going for and that’s where a lot of admiration comes from. Compared to the higher end, they didn’t hold up. Riv had some real quality frames several years ago. At this point it seems like they’ve run their corse. This is a market they should have been dominating and they missed it, IMO.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by mtechnica

To be fair you could argue any number of custom frame builders filled that niche (which could also include “touring bikes” in general). As far as consumers, there were enough 70s and 80s bikes still on the road you didn’t exactly have to look far to find something like that but yes, Rivendell stayed strong in that regard.

You could argue Grant/Riv's efforts to put that sort of bike back in the mainstream with the original production Rivendells; followed by Heron, Atlantis, Rambouillet and Romulus/Redwood; kept the custom folks in business long enough for it to blow up. The path to NAHBS starts in Walnut Creek in 1994.

[colker]

Originally Posted by Burnette

Ah, you're hung up on the "promoting" side if it, yeah, he did do that but those things were still available.

The kickers here is that last sentence, which I totally agree with, people did and do ridicule lugs and the consumer base,looking to buy it is small and shrinking.

I love lugs myself btw. But as a business you can't live in the past, you can't spend past laurels.

Right size the business. Do a market evaluation and see how much you can actually sell and cut everything else.

I feel like that if you really cared about keeping this thing going you wouldn't reinforce what isn't working, you would promote what does. Nostalgia isn't going to pay the bills.

You can make a ton of money out of the past like Rolex does.
Rivendell brought back technology. Grant was saying in the 90s and 00 we should ride like guys did in the 70s: bigger tires on unpaved roads, sitting on comfortable saddles, w/ long reach brakes and fenders.
He was saying we should ride on gravel roads. .
Who else besides Rivendell was preaching that gospel? Bruce Gordon maybe.. but BG never played things as Grant, as an attitude, a notion of what cycling should be.
These are facts.

Edit: Grant insisted on lugs and steel. Now lugs are the epithome of class but it wasn´t in the late 90s.

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

The path to NAHBS starts in Walnut Creek in 1994.

This much is true.

As someone with stakes on both sides of the aisle, there'd be no framebuiling (or handmade or lugged steel) zeitgeist in the early aughts had Grant not persevered with his own projects and vision following the closing of Bridgestone USA.

Some of us who preceded all of this would have survived. But the overarching return to independent making is a result of GP and his presence. I said it then, all along, and again now.

Separately, I hope he makes it. He's a nice man and his bicycles are good for the market he makes. Again, I hope that market can endure. Additionally, he doesn't deserve to be ridiculed or judged by folks here, or anywhere.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by colker

You can make a ton of money out of the past like Rolex does.
Rivendell brought back technology. Grant was saying in the 90s and 00 we should ride like guys did in the 70s: bigger tires on unpaved roads, sitting on comfortable saddles, w/ long reach brakes and fenders.
He was saying we should ride on gravel roads. .
Who else besides Rivendell was preaching that gospel? Bruce Gordon maybe.. but BG never played things as Grant, as an attitude, a notion of what cycling should be.
These are facts.

I'll say to you too that your passion is noticed, I get it but what is missed is that it's a business. It doesn't matter what Riv did or said yesterday if they can't sell enough to remain solvent today. A day where the market pivoted to their way if thinking yet their offerings are our of step with what what sells. No, you don't have to go back to the 70's to enjoy cycling.

And sincerely, their current offerings in no way should be compared to a Rolex.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

You could argue Grant/Riv's efforts to put that sort of bike back in the mainstream with the original production Rivendells; followed by Heron, Atlantis, Rambouillet and Romulus/Redwood; kept the custom folks in business long enough for it to blow up. The path to NAHBS starts in Walnut Creek in 1994.

Which, btw, led to a thing Grant mentioned some years ago. He detected a pattern whereupon previous buyers of production Rivs then "moved up" to a custom frame from one of those builders. Not that this has anything to do with current sales - I don't think the numbers would add up to anything significant - but it's an interesting trajectory that feels familiar. I've owned a bunch of Rivs and frequently consider my own "move up", which wouldn't be a custom Rivendell.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

This much is true.

As someone with stakes on both sides of the aisle, there'd be no framebuiling (or handmade or lugged steel) zeitgeist in the early aughts had Grant not persevered with his own projects and vision following the closing of Bridgestone USA.

Some of us who preceded all of this would have survived. But the overarching return to independent making is a result of GP and his presence. I said it then, all along, and again now.

Separately, I hope he makes it. He's a nice man and his bicycles are good for the market he makes. Again, I hope that market can endure. Additionally, he doesn't deserve to be ridiculed or judged by folks here, or anywhere.

And yet in our social media driven world, we all, if we partake in it, are judged by what we put out there.

I still don't get why people tweet, it never seems to end well.

For those close and in contact with him, it would be a good thing to advise less detail in blogs. That's what I would do if I had his ear. If he wouldn't listen then he has to deal with the fallout.

You can't put your stuff out there and not expect people to comment on it. And I don't think anyone is rooting against him or wants them to fail. To the contrary, most have offered ideas and ways to stay afloat. Part of being a friend is to show them they are headed for danger.

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Posted by Burnette

And yet in our social media driven we all, if we partake in it, judge by what we put out there.

I still don't get why people tweet, it never seems to end well.

For those close and in contact with him, it would be a good thing to advise less detail in blogs. That's what I would do if I had his ear. If he wouldn't listen then he has to deal with the fallout.

You can't put your stuff put there and not expect people to comment on it. And I don't think anyone is rooting against him or wants them to fail. To the contrary, most have offered ideas and ways to stay afloat. Part of being a friend is to show them they are headed for danger.

Sure.

[gdw]

Originally Posted by colker

Where? Who was promoting bikes able to accept fenders and 700x30 tires by mid 90s? I remember looking at the first Riv catalogue and thinking "no one does these things". Bikes were tig welded and lugs were ridiculed.

I spent some time overseas in the late 80's and 90's and seem to remember Mercian, Yates, and a number of other small UK manufacturers offering lugged frames with clearance for fenders and wider tires. That was before or in the early days of the internet so most US cyclists weren't aware of those offerings. That said, there is no denying that Grant did a great job promoting those features in the US.

[dancinkozmo]

Originally Posted by colker

Where? Who was promoting bikes able to accept fenders and 700x30 tires by mid 90s? I remember looking at the first Riv catalogue and thinking "no one does these things". Bikes were tig welded and lugs were ridiculed.

in canada mike barry (mariposa) was advocating for lugs, steel, fenders and riding 'road bikes' on dirt since the late 60's early 70's

i wouldnt be surprised if he had an influence on grant.

[colker]

Grant is a radical. He takes it to the extreme. That´s what i like about him... Take his chainstays: when you thought he was going to finnally join some low trail party or whatever , he takes his best selling model and add inches of chainstays. Everybody loves short chainstays. He does the opposite.
Everybody in the bike business wants to be seen as a rebel. Funny. Iconoclastic. Tatoos abound. Grant is way more radical and risk taking than everybody else. He says he does it because it rides better. Awesome.

[colker]

Originally Posted by gdw

I spent some time overseas in the late 80's and 90's and seem to remember Mercian, Yates, and a number of other small UK manufacturers offering lugged frames with clearance for fenders and wider tires. That was before or in the early days of the internet so most US cyclists weren't aware of those offerings. That said, there is no denying that Grant did a great job promoting those features in the US.

He always made clear he was taking clues from english bikes. He never said he invented or created anything out of the blue.

[marciero]

Originally Posted by bward1028

I’m no fan of Rivendell, but I’ve gotta day, I don’t understand how they can be failing when Peter White (with his archaic business practices) is still in business. I guess he doesn’t really have employees though

Riv and PJW not comparable. I've bought lots of stuff from Riv in the 'aughts but it has tailed off (as I probably posted earlier in this thread). I bought some wool gloves recently. On the other hand PJW has stuff I need on semi-regular basis, like wheelgoods, TA chainrings (in one tooth increments for custom gearing), generator hubs and lighting. No, the PJW website is not set up for purchasing. But if you know what you want it has been painless. For wheelbuilding I can pick up the phone and order spokes cut to length, and rims to go with it (if I am using velocity) and have them in a day. (True, I am one state over...) Picking up the phone may be archaic but that's faster than Amazon. Where else can you get spokes cut to order in 1mm increments? Warranty returns-I've had four sort of major ones- are NQA. Again, just pick up the phone.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by colker

He never said he invented or created anything out of the blue.

Correct, what he was trying (and said he was trying) to do with the original production Rivs was reintroduce what were known as sport-touring bikes in the '70s and '80s. These were largely replaced by mountain bikes; then mountain-ish hybrids; by 1994 and he didn't think they rode well on pavement.

He eventually branched into other directions, but the first frames were heavily influenced by those road bikes from the two previous decades, especially the Japanese ones.