Rivendell saved for now...

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

This is basically my argument (which is kinda pointless to argue cuz the bikes are selling, but I digress..): I don't see how Riv benefits from doing less Rivvy bikes. If I want a Speedvagen or Surly I'll just go to those companies.

Because to dole out 2,25 mil in salaries and stay solvent he needs to sell 10,000 bikes not 10.

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Posted by colker

He always made clear he was taking clues from english bikes.

Can we see a citation for this?
It's news to me.
I know GP intimately and for maybe 30+ years.
Never saw references to clues from English bicycles.

[HenryA]

Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

This much is true.

As someone with stakes on both sides of the aisle, there'd be no framebuiling (or handmade or lugged steel) zeitgeist in the early aughts had Grant not persevered with his own projects and vision following the closing of Bridgestone USA.

Some of us who preceded all of this would have survived. But the overarching return to independent making is a result of GP and his presence. I said it then, all along, and again now.

Separately, I hope he makes it. He's a nice man and his bicycles are good for the market he makes. Again, I hope that market can endure. Additionally, he doesn't deserve to be ridiculed or judged by folks here, or anywhere.

Excellent post. Thank you for it.

[Burnette]

When even the fans of the place can't agree on what it was about or wasn't, how do you think it's precieved by those not in circle and just looking for a bike?

To me, arguing the past and what it may or may not have meant is to lose sight of what's wrong now.

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Posted by Burnette

When even the fans of the place can't agree on what it was about or wasn't, how do you think it's precieved by those not in circle and just looking for a bike?.

Fans is short for fanatics. That might explain a bit.

Originally Posted by Burnette

To me, arguing the past and what it may or may not have meant is to lose sight of what's wrong now.

I referenced it (the past) but I'm not arguing.

[colker]

Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

Can we see a citation for this?
It's news to me.
I know GP intimately and for maybe 30+ years.
Never saw references to clues from English bicycles.

I remember him writing about japanese bikes. Probably i mixed up what i saw in England in the early 90s w/ his words. Audax bikes etcetera.
My memory plays tricks now.
I was going to quote you on how GP kept custom frame building going but thought i would not remember your exact words so i refrained.
Anyways... i saw lots of lugged frames w/ clearance for big tires, fenders and less saddle to hb drop in england in 1990. Nothing like that was playing in the US cycling media.

[colker]

Originally Posted by Burnette

When even the fans of the place can't agree on what it was about or wasn't, how do you think it's precieved by those not in circle and just looking for a bike?

To me, arguing the past and what it may or may not have meant is to lose sight of what's wrong now.

Sure.. but to me the point is: there is nothing intrinsically bad w/ his bikes or his shop.
It could all sell well.. but the marketing is lacking. It´s not reaching the people that would buy it. People w/ money and looking for qualities Rivendell could sell. Even if it´s not the crowd GP identifies with. Everything could be more expensive or less expensive.. it makes no difference. His stuff is not reaching the right market.
MOst of people here were saying his design is bad and that´s why it´s not selling. I believe this is the wrong conclusion.
That´s all.

If i am a fan or not a fan makes no difference. If i know all the details of his thinking it makes no difference.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

[I]Fans[/I] is short for fanatics. That might explain a bit.



I referenced it (the past) but I'm not arguing.

In bold, I agree, ha!

Oh, I know you aren't arguing the past, but others are, and from my perspective, all this grousing about the past, as seen by someone removed from it, it seems as if Grant isn't alone in being locked into looking back, unable to react to what's happening now.

It's like showing trophies in a trophy case and then the lights go out because the power bill didn't get paid.

Outside of blogs and gatherings to reminisce, it matters not who did what when and does not help with the current revenue problems.

[Joe Remi]

I tend to discuss what I know about the stuff being discussed at any given time in a discussion. Riv history came up so I discussed Riv history, I think it's odd to be in the middle of a discussion and be told, "Oops, don't do that, we're talking about something else." I can only respond to the comments on the page as they line up.

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Posted by Burnette

In bold, I agree, ha!

Oh, I know you aren't arguing the past, but others are, and from my perspective, all this grousing about the past, as seen by someone removed from it, it seems as if Grant isn't alone in being locked into looking back, unable to react to what's happening now.

It's like showing trophies in a trophy case and then the lights go out because the power bill didn't get paid.

Outside of blogs and gatherings to reminisce, it matters not who did what when and does not help with the current revenue problems.

Agreed.
Nothing that happens or is discussed here helps his current revenue problems either.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by colker

Sure.. but to me the point is: there is nothing intrinsically bad w/ his bikes or his shop.
It could all sell well.. but the marketing is lacking. It´s not reaching the people that would buy it. People w/ money and looking for qualities Rivendell could sell. Even if it´s not the crowd GP identifies with. Everything could be more expensive or less expensive.. it makes no difference. His stuff is not reaching the right market.
MOst of people here were saying his design is bad and that´s why it´s not selling. I believe this is the wrong conclusion.
That´s all.

If i am a fan or not a fan makes no difference. If i know all the details of his thinking it makes no difference.

Maybe the wording I may have been harsh but yeah, looking at the bikes posted, for the majority of people they are odd looking bikes. Downright ugly even.

But to your point and here I agree, he may not be reaching the audience that would actually buy these types of bikes. But go one step further with me and see that the market for those types of bikes at those prices is tiny, hence my call to downsize the operation to match actual demand.

Even Grant gets it, it's right there in the last post in the blog, he says they are a micro niche. They should right size the enterprise to match that small size.

[colker]

Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

Agreed.
Nothing that happens or is discussed here helps his current revenue problems either.

And?

[colker]

Originally Posted by Burnette

Maybe the wording I may have been harsh but yeah, looking at the bikes posted, for the majority of people they are odd looking bikes. Downright ugly even.

But to your point and here I agree, he may not be reaching the audience that would actually buy these types of bikes. But go one step further with me and see that the market for those types of bikes at those prices is tiny, hence my call to downsize the operation to match actual demand.

Even Grant gets it, it's right there in the last post in the blog, he says they are a micro niche. They should right size the enterprise to match that small size.

Here is what i think: the luxury market in the US could be his best market and Riv is far away from these buyers.
It could be reached though. Maybe it could. It goes a bit against the soul of Riv... and against GP style, his blog etc.. But his bikes are the kind of thing the luxury market wants. Just like they are.

EDIT: Traditional materials. Comfort. Classic looks... It only takes a good marketing person to sort this thing out.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

Agreed.
Nothing that happens or is discussed here helps his current revenue problems either.

It doesn't but we all go to bike boards to talk bikes and the Riv story is a good one. You bring up an excellent point here too. By putting all his stuff out there online I would wager it has hurt the image of the place quite a bit. You know as well as anyone, you have to protect your brand and the blog has done much harm IMO.

Don't you reckon that it may have had an effect on someone wanting to place a high dollar order with them, people who sell to them on credit, people who might want to invest in the place?

The story has legs because he blogs. And what he blogs, love him or not, is off the charts. I mean if you read it as a reader untethered to the place it's wild stuff.

Add to that, the asking for donations and blog updates that go one step higher and yes, it's going to get plenty of responses.

[Louis]

Originally Posted by colker

And?

And IMO we've just about beaten this particular topic to death.