NAHBS 2021 pushed to 2022

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

others have heard/seen things. it's up to them to speak up. if this were a clear one-off, i'd be more judicious in posting it. i don't know walker, i've only spoken to him once, but i've heard/seen enough through the grapevine. and yes - this kind of sentiment fuels the current wave of anti-asian hatred and violence. he just swept it under the rug, like it never happened.

we all need to realize that (for better or worse) the world is very interconnected. physical distance when it comes to the flow of ideas, technology, goods, labor, and money (though oddly, not people) has been shrunken by multiple factors in the past 20 years. to take such xenophobic stances in the name of "made here" and such is extraordinarily troubling, especially in an industry very dependent on asian engineering and manufacturing labor (even for the custom builders). custom building is cool neat and rad because of how nimble it is, how innovative it can be, and the singular vision of a small shop. not because of where the building takes place, or the ethnicity of the people are that are doing the building. i should also preface this with: EVERYONE DESERVES A LIVING WAGE.

i'm a white american guy, but many of you know i've spent time working for a custom builder from a "developing country". the xenophobic and racist vibes were always present when i tried to promote the brand here, and this kind of crap touches a nerve. that said, i'm trying to build things in the most expensive state in the country, because of why i iterated above. mad science ftw.

ymmv. but i'm never going to nahbs again.

This has no relevance to your allegations whatsoever. It merely diminishes them. You've made a serious allegation - and one that could potentially affect Mr. Walker's business. To my mind, you provided proof, at the very least, of Mr. Walker's tone-deaf insensitivity. But gossip or "the Grapevine" has no currency in a discussion such as this one.

Knowing how insular the hand-built bike world is, I actually admire your chutzpah in broaching the subject. It's a worthy topic of discussion.

[mistermo]

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

...i don't know walker, i've only spoken to him once...

Originally Posted by pdmtong

He does appear to be ignorant and closed minded.

The people who avoid you at Costco are quick to judge based upon a lazy reliance on information from others, and an ignorant and incomplete knowledge of the situation and facts.

Seems to me that's the situation we have here. Let's not perpetuate the same behavior towards others.

[texbike]

Originally Posted by pdmtong

Don's post and subsequent remarks show he is completely ignorant of the ramifications of his "sense of humor". Is he racist? Idk. He does appear to be ignorant and closed minded.

^This! I'm not a fan of Don Walker, but wouldn't go to the extent of calling the man a racist based on his comments in that post. I don't know him well enough to make that claim and wouldn't for that reason. However, I would say that he doesn't seem to care about making comments that could be detrimental to others and construed as being racist. That attitude (and the way that it's projected through NAHBS and his frame-building business) is why I'm not a fan of his.

Texbike

[ElvisMerckx]

Hoping to get this back on track.

I went to NAHBS in Richmond, Denver, Austin, Hartford, and Charlotte (and possibly another, can't recall). Loved it every time I went, and I can't wait to go again. Look forward to talking to builders and folks from industry. Eager to see the great bikes again, in person; hopefully this pandemic will be over.

[ColonelJLloyd]

What I can say for sure is that the "seven swordsmen" font Walker uses on his frames is not good at all. Eye of the beholder and all that.

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by mistermo

The people who avoid you at Costco are quick to judge based upon a lazy reliance on information from others, and an ignorant and incomplete knowledge of the situation and facts.

Seems to me that's the situation we have here. Let's not perpetuate the same behavior towards others.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - MLK

I think one is judged by the content of his character while the other is being judge by the color of his skin. To simplify, "I don't like Don Walker for his tasteless racial jokes" vs "I don't like Asians because they are Asians". There is a huge difference here.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by mistermo

It is a fact that initially, Dr Jerome Adams (Surgeon General) said that masks don't work.

That would be better be regarded as what Kelly Conway referred to as an "alternative fact".

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ks/6765301002/


By the time Don Walker contracted COVID-19, it was already being transmitted by community spread in the US for some time. In other words, by the time Walker got it, it had already become our virus.

And for that matter, why don't you call it the "bat virus", since the most likely origin of covid is from bats.

[weisan]

This topic has come up with some degree of regularity over the past few months. I would like to offer some clarification and suggestions.

That's not the intent nor the focus of this thread, but a diversion so I will keep it as brief as possible.

First and foremost, I just want you to remember these three words.

Protect. The. Innocent.

It serves as the protective guardrail to keep us safe and not go out of bounds in our discourse as well as helping us to stay focused on the main issue at hand.

When it comes to making good judgement calls about racism, it is ABSOLUTELY critical that we are just as interested and passionate in exposing anyone with a true bent towards racist disposition as we are in exonerating anyone who is misunderstood and were falsely accused. I have seen "racism" being used as a weapon to get rid of an opponent or remove someone from a position of influence. It's just a devious and evil.

At the end of the day, our main interest is in....that's right, PROTECT THE INNOCENT!

Whether it's an allegedly racist comment made by Don Walker, or Donald Trump, or Chloé Dygert, or Gianni Moscon, it doesn't matter...they kinda run on the same pattern.

Normally when people are being called out and accused of the "crime", their first reaction is usually to deny vehemently of any wrongdoing or come up with some excuses.

That is a fatal mistake.

Again, whatever you do, you want to...PROTECT THE INNOCENT.

When you are accused of being racist, the ONLY appropriate response is NOT to defend your honor or reputation but to put yourself in the other person's shoes and reflect whether there's anything that you have said or done that could potentially have created that misunderstanding or inflict any kind of pain and injury....whether INTENTIONALLY or UNINTENTIONALLY.

Your first priority is to go to that person to apologize and seek clarification. An apology is not always an admission of guilt, it's simply acknowledging what the other person is going through. A sign of emotional intelligence.

ALL racists lack one thing. They don't possess the emotional intelligence to be able to consider nor understand the impact of their words and actions on the other party. They chose to ignore or continue to exert their right to their own opinion and stay on course.

It's only when the public pressure begins to mount, that their career or future faces a certain threat or repercussion, then and only then will they backtrack and consider issuing a "public statement" that runs something like this....it's pretty standard copy. They are used the same line....

"I realize now how my actions or words can be misconstrued as being racist. But I can assure you nothing is further from the truth. I have spent my whole life defending equality and is committed to open and fair play."

No admission of guilt. The emphasis is on "I" - me...the Narcist. What I have done or not done...and what I will continue to do. I...I....I!

Narcissism is a close cousin of Racism.

It's a tell-tale sign.

Sometimes someone might just have a blindspot and after they are being pointed out, they are more than happy to be corrected, and desist from committing further transgression. We should welcome them readily back into our fold and fellowship. We are not perfect.

Ok.....that's all I have to offer.

Good night!

[mistermo]

My posts are not intended as a defense of Don Walker's comments. Rather, they're intended to provoke thought and encourage people to reflect on their own judgmental nature(s) and the hastiness with which they seem to condemn the character of a man they don't know. What is the goal of these comments? To demonstrate we have the moral high ground and banish Don and NAHBS forever? I hope not.

One can condemn the comments without condemning the man. In this thread, along with the condemnation of his comment (appropriate), I hear condemnation of the man (inappropriate), while no one here has said they know him well enough to make that determination. It's a lazy cheap shot.

What's the purpose of these anti-Don comments? He'll certainly read this.
Do we think comments about his shortcomings, real or perceived, will cause him to become woke and follow the course advocated by those insulting and judging him? Or, will it continue to alienate both sides as it seems to have already done? Is the intent to online shame him into submission? C'mon, we're better than this. This isn't the behavior she intended when she said, "When they go low, we go high."

Someone who feels entitled to pass judgement on a man's character based upon hearsay or a lone insensitive online remark (or choice of font?!?!) is no better than another who feels entitled to judge a man based on his race or skin color. Both judgements display an eagerness to condemn and a laziness of thought.

I know someone, a white male, who is a judge. He is married to a black woman. From what I'm able to see, it's a healthy marriage. Every day, he is called a racist. Because someone says he's racist, does it make it so? Those who call him racist are lazy and quick to judge, and lack knowledge of the man.

Like weisan-pal suggested, let's exercise emotional intelligence by directing examination and judgement at ourselves and own propensity to rush to judgement of another without a full knowledge of what's inside a man's head.

[mistermo]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

That would be better be regarded as what Kelly Conway referred to as an "alternative fact".

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ks/6765301002/

J Adams saying masks don't work

K Conway occupies P2 of my list of people I choose to ignore. P1 is Tucker. No idea what she means by alternative facts. I'll let Adam's statement(s) stand on its own.

[Toddykins]

Don’s comment was clearly ill judged - Your solution is to have us ignore it? I think there is a reasonable discussion to be had about what are appropriate consequences/the best way to remediate, but Don is not the victim here, enough with the false equivalences. As multiple people have pointed out, words matter and have real world consequences.

[lavi]

s

Originally Posted by weisan

This topic has come up with some degree of regularity over the past few months. I would like to offer some clarification and suggestions.

Protect. The. Innocent.

Good night!

This was well said. Thank you. Racism makes my blood boil. I'm have zero tolerance for it. I'm the guy that will swing before asking for clarification. I need more of this brand of calm and measured response in my life.

But racism is almost unforgivable. I say almost as I was raised in a way that espoused forgiveness, and that no person is perfect/without imperfection. I also believe that those on frames made from sand shouldn't ride in the water. I am far from perfect. Maybe I'm "solid" when it comes to not being racist...but I certainly suck in other areas. So yes, grace is a thing for me.

My shortness of temper may have everything to do with a certain recent administration and acts committed in Federal buildings.

Originally Posted by mistermo

My posts are not intended as a defense of Don Walker's comments. Rather, they're intended to provoke thought and encourage people to reflect on their own judgmental nature(s) and the hastiness with which they seem to condemn the character of a man they don't know. What is the goal of these comments? To demonstrate we have the moral high ground and banish Don and NAHBS forever? I hope not.

One can condemn the comments without condemning the man. In this thread, along with the condemnation of his comment (appropriate), I hear condemnation of the man (inappropriate), while no one here has said they know him well enough to make that determination. It's a lazy cheap shot.

What's the purpose of these anti-Don comments? He'll certainly read this.
Do we think comments about his shortcomings, real or perceived, will cause him to become woke and follow the course advocated by those insulting and judging him? Or, will it continue to alienate both sides as it seems to have already done? Is the intent to online shame him into submission? C'mon, we're better than this. This isn't the behavior she intended when she said, "When they go low, we go high."

Someone who feels entitled to pass judgement on a man's character based upon hearsay or a lone insensitive online remark (or choice of font?!?!) is no better than another who feels entitled to judge a man based on his race or skin color. Both judgements display an eagerness to condemn and a laziness of thought.

I know someone, a white male, who is a judge. He is married to a black woman. From what I'm able to see, it's a healthy marriage. Every day, he is called a racist. Because someone says he's racist, does it make it so? Those who call him racist are lazy and quick to judge, and lack knowledge of the man.

Like weisan-pal suggested, let's exercise emotional intelligence by directing examination and judgement at ourselves and own propensity to rush to judgement of another without a full knowledge of what's inside a man's head.

I hear what you are saying. However, this is NOT the time for anything that can be construed as potentially racist to be defended. If Don is reading this, now would be the time to step in and say what needs to be said. And if he does say something, you waited too long. For those of us here that are white males, now is the time to LISTEN. We don't need to speak. Our offerings are not great many times. Honestly, we should STFU. Our ancestors made it so we should do more paying attention. If we feel this is overly harsh or critical, it's because we lack perspective on what many others deal with daily.

You mentioned banishing Don and NAHBS. I don't believe in "cancel culture". Mainly because it's wielded by idiots. But really because if it weren't for second chances, many of us would be screwed. However, racism, trips a certain trigger. I'm thankful this is being addressed in this thread.

I don't think NAHBS or even Don (his bikes do less than zero for me regardless of his likely racist comments) should be abandoned. However, this is enough for me to say Don should say byebye. Sell it so it can survive. The pool has been soiled.

There are consequences to one's actions.


Your comments I highlighted in bold: you maybe should withdraw this.

[simonov]

Originally Posted by lavi

You mentioned banishing Don and NAHBS. I don't believe in "cancel culture". Mainly because it's wielded by idiots. But really because if it weren't for second chances, many of us would be screwed. However, racism, trips a certain trigger. I'm thankful this is being addressed in this thread.

I don't think NAHBS or even Don (his bikes do less than zero for me regardless of his likely racist comments) should be abandoned. However, this is enough for me to say Don should say byebye. Sell it so it can survive. The pool has been soiled.

There are consequences to one's actions.


Your comments I highlighted in bold: you maybe should withdraw this.

The problem with the term "cancel culture" is that it tries to put a negative spin on something that is quite reasonable, that there are consequences for one's actions. If we looked at it as "encouraging people to stop supporting a business due to a distasteful owner/product/image/etc." then I think most people who believe in consequences would agree. I fully agree with your sentiment. I think Don's time has come and gone and with PBE there are options that haven't been spoiled. I just think the term cancel culture should go away since nobody actually gets cancelled...they just get held accountable.

[Hilltopperny]

Don said an off color joke and it was not received well. Are you folks outraged by Don's words also outraged by the human rights violations going on at the "work camps" in China for the Ugar Muslims? I don't here you crying for the removal of the Olympics from Beijing even though they have actively stripped away the little freedoms that Hong Kong had left and literally enslave an entire culture based on their religious beliefs, but forcing Don out of his own creation is totally necessary right? Oh that's right the corporate owned media didn't tell you to be outraged by real genocide...Matter of fact the most popular leader ever said they were just cultural differences...Also the same guy who actively wrote legislation to remove POC from school buses with known Klan members like Senator Robert Byrd because he "did not want his kids to grow up in a racial jungle" post segregation, sponsored the 1994 crime bill and a multitude of other actual racist comments and actions some of which as recent as this week...He also had been axed from previous presidential runs because of multiple instances of lying and perjury. Why no coverage of any of this information over the past year? Sounds like media suppression to me? Strange days and I have had enough of the bickering on a bike forum. Yes, Don is a builder and also a human being. If you can chastise him for his one comment and vote for a man who spent his entire career pushing racist legislation or turn a blind eye to genocide you are a hypocrite. Selective outrage is a f)(#!ng joke...

Spanish flu, UK variant, South African variant are all acceptable terms, but China virus is not. It is strange to me how we can use descriptive terms for some things, but not others? Again not condoning Don's poor joke, but what exactly is the difference?


Start thinking more critically about the world around you would be my advice and lets leave these threads and others to bike discussion as that is what this place is for. You may think your views are normal and fine because the media apparatus tells you so, but the truth is that is not what every person believes. Make a conscious decision to not support things you feel are wrong or unjust if you would like to have an impact, but don't be intellectually lazy because some news source bought and paid for by corporate interests pushes a narrative...

CAMPY IS BETTER THAN SHIMANO!

Peace and love folks! I realize my post is not within the forum rules and accept any reprimand headed my way for it, but I feel it has to be said...

[Clean39T]

Some resources:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...st-hate-crimes

https://ktla.com/morning-news/stop-a...ian-americans/

https://www.standagainsthatred.org/