Know the rules The Paceline Forum Builder's Spotlight


Go Back   The Paceline Forum > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #211  
Old 09-27-2020, 11:11 AM
rain dogs rain dogs is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
There are two designs. It’s not early vs late. It’s a manner of what type. Shimano makes both type of derailleurs for current groups. You can use a 2x RD in 1x but not a 1x in a 2x setup. At least not without issue.

Design 1 uses a slat parallelogram. This design uses the parallelogram geometry to follow the cassette profile. When you shift from the small ring to the large ring, the cage rotates and it doesn’t dramatically change the distance from the cassette.

Design 2 uses a near horizontal parallelogram with a pulley cage with a very offset upper pulley. This design uses chain length/tension to control distance to the cassette. You can do this on 1x because the only thing that changes the chain length is rear cog size. If you were to use this design with a front derailleur, you would have two variables. Your front derailleur would be changing your effective b-tension. You would either be too far away in the big ring or crashing onto the cassette in the little ring.

You can see this in action if you watch a video of ekar or similar designed derailleurs shifting.
Cool. Thanks. DO you have a video link handy? I've been searching for Ekar shifting on youtube but not seeing anything.

NVMND..... I see the action in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tptAGcNNjrA). It ultimately looks like it would be a capacity issue as well. Well... that's lame. Another reason to dislike 1x (lame derailleur geometry). Looks like I'll be waiting forever for a clutch on a Campagnolo derailleur that will wrok with 2x.
__________________
cimacoppi.cc

Last edited by rain dogs; 09-27-2020 at 11:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #212  
Old 09-27-2020, 11:17 AM
yinzerniner yinzerniner is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain dogs View Post
As I understand (and I could be wrong)... the cable pull comes from my shifters, so as long as the shift ratio is the same (1,5) then I could use the Ekar to shift through an 11speed cassette, using 11 speed shifters on a 1x 11 system. But I want 2x 11. The only thing that would mess up the front shifting would be total capacity or the force of the clutch.
Or help me understand the other factor?
Year of the RD doesn’t mean anything, just model/ series
XT RDs are front chainring compatible Depending on model.

As for why some RDs with the exact same cable pull work differently see below. The geometry of the RD isn’t determined by the cable pull, the cable is just a switch or dial that moves it into one position or another. The swing / path / operation / position is built into the RD. Clutch has nothing to do with front chainring compatibility.
https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/q...ear-derailleur
Reply With Quote
  #213  
Old 09-27-2020, 11:24 AM
thirdgenbird thirdgenbird is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain dogs View Post
Cool. Thanks. DO you have a video link handy? I've been searching for Ekar shifting on youtube but not seeing anything.

NVMND..... I see the action in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tptAGcNNjrA)
This doesn’t show shifting, but it does show how much chain length effects b tension:
https://youtu.be/s5hN94bN3nM

Having two dramatically different chainrings would effectively cause the same issue. Could you set the chain length for a ring halfway between the two and make it work? Maybe, but it would be a compromise.

Have you tried 12 speed? I have had my chorus 12 off-road a few times and it seems to manage the chain very well. My initial impression is a clutch isn’t needed. If I were riding on anything rough enough where it was not sufficient, I would be set on 1x anyway. I am guessing Campagnolo agrees.
Reply With Quote
  #214  
Old 09-27-2020, 11:30 AM
Velocipede Velocipede is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,460
The EKAR rear derailleur WILL NOT work with a 12/11/10 speed rear shifter. They are not designed the same. One is a 2d geometry and one is 3d geometry. I should've mentioned this in the questions/answers post I did. Sorry. This comment(will not work) is from Campy directly. I have not tried it. No reason for me to try it right now.

EKAR is stand alone for now. I have no info on a 13 speed road kit. I don't think they could do it though. 130mm rear spacing, I don't see how they could cram 13 in there. 12 is pushing it now.

Last edited by Velocipede; 09-27-2020 at 11:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #215  
Old 09-27-2020, 11:33 AM
rain dogs rain dogs is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
Have you tried 12 speed? I have had my chorus 12 off-road a few times and it seems to manage the chain very well. My initial impression is a clutch isn’t needed. If I were riding on anything rough enough where it was not sufficient, I would be set on 1x anyway. I am guessing Campagnolo agrees.
Haven't tried 12 speed, but if it doesn't have a clutch I'm not interested. The clutch for me is key, in fact (and keep in mind I haven't used modern 1x, but did have a bodge 1x system about 8 years ago), but I think that the clutch would be even more important on 2x than 1x because of the ability to drop the chain.

Ultimately, the XT derailleur I have is a mountain bike derailleur, which I imagine would be normally used in conditions more demanding on the system than gravel. I love having the clutch for when things get really rough. Wouldn't go back. Again, I just hate having the jtek.

And no, switching from Campagnolo ergo levers is not an option. Never. I'd go singlespeed before that. And, I know, I'm an outlier, but I don't want hydraulic either on my bike for travel/adventure/service reasons. My wife has hydro.... loves it, it's great, and I've learned how to service it... fine, but I don't want it on my bike, so Ekar is out.
__________________
cimacoppi.cc

Last edited by rain dogs; 09-27-2020 at 11:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #216  
Old 09-27-2020, 11:40 AM
morrisond morrisond is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocipede View Post
The EKAR rear derailleur WILL NOT work with a 12/11/10 speed rear shifter. They are not designed the same. One is a 2d geometry and one is 3d geometry. I should've mentioned this in the questions/answers post I did. Sorry. This comment(will not work) is from Campy directly. I have not tried it. No reason for me to try it right now.

EKAR is stand alone for now. I am I have no info on a 13 speed road kit. I don't think they could do it though. 130mm rear spacing, I don't see how they could cram 13 in there. 12 is pushing it now.
130 or 135 rear spacing doesn't make a difference on the Cassette/freehub width - All things being equal it's the distance between the Hub flanges that changes. The Cassette is just spaced 2.5 mm farther out and that is why the chain lines are going wider to compensate.
Reply With Quote
  #217  
Old 09-27-2020, 11:40 AM
thirdgenbird thirdgenbird is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocipede View Post
EKAR is stand alone for now. I am I have no info on a 13 speed road kit. I don't think they could do it though. 130mm rear spacing, I don't see how they could cram 13 in there. 12 is pushing it now.
It could probably be done, but they would be very limited by cassette size. The largest cogs would need to cantilever over the hub flange and spokes. This restriction would probably keep it from being useful for most of the 2x and/or road market. Campagnolo is already niche, no reason for them to serve a niche within a niche.

That’s why I said it will be interesting to see where they go next. It’s also why I jokingly asked if we see rim brakes live beyond 2x12. They would probably have to go thinner than Ekar to fit something with say a 29t max cog but it would create a situation like sram where 12spd road and mtb are different spacing which likely happened for similar reasons. The current state of hub spacing and the near disappearance of rim brake frames will make the future interesting. Trek offers 1 rim brake drop bar bike. Specialized offers 3. All of them are complete builds that cost less than a Chorus group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morrisond View Post
130 or 135 rear spacing doesn't make a difference on the Cassette/freehub width - All things being equal it's the distance between the Hub flanges that changes. The Cassette is just spaced 2.5 mm farther out and that is why the chain lines are going wider to compensate.
It does make a difference. In this new world of dinner plate sized cassettes, you don’t need a wider freehub body. The large cogs live in an area over the hub flange and spokes. You are making a bit more room, just not at the actual hub interface.



Not the best picture, but best I could find. Note that not only is the large cog cantilevered over the carrier, but the carrier itself is concave. Smaller cogs and narrower dropout spacing would both add limitations.

Last edited by thirdgenbird; 09-27-2020 at 12:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #218  
Old 09-27-2020, 11:43 AM
rain dogs rain dogs is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocipede View Post
This comment(will not work) is from Campy directly. I have not tried it. No reason for me to try it right now.
C'mooooooooooooooooooon, try it. You know you're curious. You know you wanna. Bodge-ing things together, or needing to, has been the soul of Gravel/Bikepacking for the last 15 years.... why would I expect that to actually change now just cause Ekar?
__________________
cimacoppi.cc

Last edited by rain dogs; 09-27-2020 at 11:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #219  
Old 09-27-2020, 11:51 AM
yinzerniner yinzerniner is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain dogs View Post
C'mooooooooooooooooooon, try it. You know you're curious. You know you wanna. Bodge-ing things together, or needing to, has been the soul of Gravel/Bikepacking for the last 15 years.... why would I expect that to actually change now just cause Ekar?
Here’s a thought, how about you buy the Ekar RD yourself try it since you’re the only one who seems hellbent on making it work? Instead of asking everyone else and getting the same answers?

Just a thought.
Reply With Quote
  #220  
Old 09-27-2020, 11:52 AM
Velocipede Velocipede is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by morrisond View Post
130 or 135 rear spacing doesn't make a difference on the Cassette/freehub width - All things being equal it's the distance between the Hub flanges that changes. The Cassette is just spaced 2.5 mm farther out and that is why the chain lines are going wider to compensate.
Of course it does. If the rear spacing is 130mm and the cassette sits too close to the inside of the dropout or chain/seatstay and the chain rubs on the stays, pretty sure a 135mm spacing is going to give 2.5mm more spacing on the drive side to avoid that happening.
Reply With Quote
  #221  
Old 09-27-2020, 11:54 AM
rain dogs rain dogs is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by yinzerniner View Post
Here’s a thought, how about you buy the Ekar RD yourself try it since you’re the only one who seems hellbent on making it work? Instead of asking everyone else and getting the same answers?

Just a thought.
It was a joke. And I'm planning on it.

I was having a conversation with thirdgenbird who was very helpful. Does that bother you? You mad?
__________________
cimacoppi.cc
Reply With Quote
  #222  
Old 09-27-2020, 12:02 PM
thirdgenbird thirdgenbird is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,068
So here is an interesting thought...

I am confident the Ekar derailleur won’t work well 2x (well explained above) but how about 12spd levers with an Ekar rear derailleur for a hack job 1x setup. Would dumb luck make it index across a 10, 11 or 12spd mtb cassette? We have seen silly things like this happen before. Not sure what advantage it would provide outside of people wanting to retain cable pull brakes or wanting to use a non-Campagnolo freehub. You would also sacrifice gear ratios.
Reply With Quote
  #223  
Old 09-27-2020, 01:09 PM
yinzerniner yinzerniner is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain dogs View Post
It was a joke. And I'm planning on it.

I was having a conversation with thirdgenbird who was very helpful. Does that bother you? You mad?
Just never thought begging and pleading like veruca salt to someone who’s already freely provided a wealth of knowledge and assistance could be considered a joke. Especially when said questions could be easily answered with just a cursory effort on the googs

Obviously my online humor radar needs servicing.

But obviously meticulously report your findings after you pony up the dough and time for your mad shifting science experiments, flatheads like myself are dying to know how Italian Gravel mullets (or Duoullets) work. We’re all hypocrites like that !
Reply With Quote
  #224  
Old 09-27-2020, 01:15 PM
yinzerniner yinzerniner is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
So here is an interesting thought...

I am confident the Ekar derailleur won’t work well 2x (well explained above) but how about 12spd levers with an Ekar rear derailleur for a hack job 1x setup. Would dumb luck make it index across a 10, 11 or 12spd mtb cassette? We have seen silly things like this happen before. Not sure what advantage it would provide outside of people wanting to retain cable pull brakes or wanting to use a non-Campagnolo freehub. You would also sacrifice gear ratios.
Would like to see if this was possible as well. Given the tighter tolerances ( and limited space) of 12 and 13s I cant see the RD positioning being that effected by different cable pull amounts. One thing might be the pulley wheels tho, as they could be only for the narrower chain.

Thing is for 11s mtb cassettes you might be better off just using the existing solutions. 12s could be the ticket, although you’d still need the 12s campy shifter and wither xd or micro spline cassettes.
Reply With Quote
  #225  
Old 09-27-2020, 01:30 PM
thirdgenbird thirdgenbird is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by yinzerniner View Post
Would like to see if this was possible as well. Given the tighter tolerances ( and limited space) of 12 and 13s I cant see the RD positioning being that effected by different cable pull amounts. One thing might be the pulley wheels tho, as they could be only for the narrower chain.

Thing is for 11s mtb cassettes you might be better off just using the existing solutions. 12s could be the ticket, although you’d still need the 12s campy shifter and wither xd or micro spline cassettes.
Tighter spacing forces standardization of cog spacing, but cable pull is still a wildcard. I am no wizard, but the fact that Ekar sends the cable around a cam before anchoring could make it a wildly different cable pull.

The kluge i eluded to certainly wouldn’t be better than designed solutions but sometimes it’s fun to play around with things. Someone with a lot more parts on hand would have to test.

Last edited by thirdgenbird; 09-27-2020 at 01:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.