Question on group rides

[barry1021]

OK this has probably been covered before, but I was out riding a few evenings ago by myself (typical) when I ran into a group of about 8 in a pace line. I am not a group ride guy, esp this type of intense group ride. They were doing about 21-22 MPH, not comfortable for me to pass but easy enough for me to stay with, at least on the flats for awhile, actually I kept to the speed that I had been doing almopst exactly. A couple of them were working really hard to keep up. I settled in about 10 yards behind, as there was basically no where else to go and this was my preplanned route to get home before nightfall. They didn't acknowledge me even when someone that had gotten dropped came up and joined, and that's cool, I had no desire to join them anyway.
My question is this: we were on a narrow two lane road with pretty steady traffic as people were heading home, and they were taking short pulls, maybe a minute, sometimes more, sometimes less, at which time the leader would move left to move to the back.
Which held up traffic. A lot. There was a lot of beeping, not the angry "get the eff outta the road" honking, but "hey I am here, I am hungry and you are riding in the middle of the road" beeping. It was basically ignored, and I found it so aggravating that I decided to change my route at the next chance if need be to get away from them, which I did.
My read is "adapt to the situation", either slow it down, and take longer pulls, or be more sensitive to the traffic flow, or SOMETHING. They weren't making any friends for the biking community or with me. Am I wrong??

b21

um.... i think what happened is you came upon a gaggle of freds in their natural habitat.

you never want to get between said gaggle and a bad decision. because they're know to lack both wit and skill. best to sit up and let them go or pass.

do not sit on or enlighten.



atmo.

[eddief]

purposely pissing off drivers by not staying single file in those "narrow" situations gives the driver tacit permission to pick them off one at time.

just like those times when i, yes i, am kind enough to use my rear view mirror, yes my rear view mirror, to call out in a calm tone of voice, "car back", and the riders up ahead choose to stay spread out wide. run their butts over. figuratively speaking of course.

[Fixed]

sit up let em go unless you know them ..they don't know you either .
imho
cheers

[Bruce K]

On our group rides there are certain roads where 2 abreast is a no-no.

Not only does it tick off the drivers, but it ticks off the local constabulary, and that's even worse.

As was stated above, you need to assess the situation and ride accordingly.

BK

[Ahneida Ride]

I NEVER po drivers.

I only take the road when conditions dicate, look em in the eye if possible
and always wave thank you!

Annoying drivers and they take it out on another cyclist.

As a driver, I've seen cyclists do really stupid stuff. Real stupid.

[Tom]

You are right. Cyclists have the same rights but the same responsibilities as a car driver. They wouldn't think of holding up traffic like that with a car, so the same applies to a bike. It was time for them to sit up and ride single file, if the road ever cleared the leader could swing around and if at all possible come down the right side of the group.

Maybe, too, they could learn to come back very close to the line. It's something I struggle at myself but in the little group I now and then hook up with there's one guy who has a ton of race experience that casually comes by just about brushing my bars as he drifts back. At first it made me a little nervous but then I realized I had nothing to worry about, he knows exactly what he's doing and he's taking up as little of the road as possible. He even does it when we're riding roads where the shoulders are the size of the traffic lane.

[Michael Maddox]

This happens in all of our local A rides. 25-50 racing cyclists, all with years of experience, block WAY too much traffic, inciting honks and complaints. Last Saturday, one of the rides was stopped by a deputy, who calmly related the complaints to the group. The responses were along the lines of: "Twenty-five of us, but he responds to 2 complaints from motorists," "We're using the road legally."

IMHO, the motorist's complaints were reasonable, as the group spreads out WAY too far and pays NO attention to cars behind them. In another ride, I've seen 40 of these riders disobey traffic signs, taking right-hand turns into oncoming traffic as ONE GROUP, all in the name of "training under race conditions." This REALLY got to me, as I was in an oncoming car and found myself surrounded by cyclists on all sides as they ran the stop sign. You can't stop these guys or say anything to them without becoming a "crazy driver" in their eyes and closing their ears and minds to the truth. The A and B level rides in Tallahassee, Florida are out of control and damned dangerous. There's no one to call and no one will hear your complaints--even as a cyclist yourself. It's all "us versus THEM" in their eyes.

To be fair, I understand the cyclists' point of view. I was with the group (riding to the far right of the road in the rear) in the first instance I relate. Many of the drivers have irrational beliefs that bicycles should be confined to the local MUP and recently, one cyclist was SHOT with an air rifle along this same stretch of low-traffic country road. There is error on BOTH sides of this argument.

My own beliefs : 1) take the high road and displaying courtesy during rides or drives--always being aware of people around you and their possibly irrational desires, 2) assert your rights when reasonably safe to do so, but NEVER argue with a car, even if its driver is in the wrong--too easy to die, 3) avoid verbal sparring but if you must, never engage in verbal sparring with a driver without stopping and putting the bike down--it makes it MUCH more personal to demand someone to defend their point of view against some BIG GUY rather than against "one-a them damn bike riders."

I've confined myself to solo rides and C-D rides from here out, sticking close to those with a little less aggression (and a LOT more rationality) in their riding style. I can train by myself or with a buddy.

How do we communicate rationality and good-sense to the other cyclists out there?

[Fixed]

bro isn't like that everywhere where racers train in masses? i like smaller groups in my old age 10 is large enough imho
cheers

[Orin]

Originally Posted by barry1021

OK this has probably been covered before, but I was out riding a few evenings ago by myself (typical) when I ran into a group of about 8 in a pace line. I am not a group ride guy, esp this type of intense group ride. They were doing about 21-22 MPH, not comfortable for me to pass but easy enough for me to stay with, at least on the flats for awhile, actually I kept to the speed that I had been doing almopst exactly. A couple of them were working really hard to keep up. I settled in about 10 yards behind, as there was basically no where else to go and this was my preplanned route to get home before nightfall. They didn't acknowledge me even when someone that had gotten dropped came up and joined, and that's cool, I had no desire to join them anyway.
My question is this: we were on a narrow two lane road with pretty steady traffic as people were heading home, and they were taking short pulls, maybe a minute, sometimes more, sometimes less, at which time the leader would move left to move to the back.
Which held up traffic. A lot. There was a lot of beeping, not the angry "get the eff outta the road" honking, but "hey I am here, I am hungry and you are riding in the middle of the road" beeping. It was basically ignored, and I found it so aggravating that I decided to change my route at the next chance if need be to get away from them, which I did.
My read is "adapt to the situation", either slow it down, and take longer pulls, or be more sensitive to the traffic flow, or SOMETHING. They weren't making any friends for the biking community or with me. Am I wrong??

b21

You aren't wrong. In the future, you might consider dropping back more than 10 yards so cars can at least get by you.

Personally, I wouldn't consider moving off the front of a paceline on a narrow road if there were cars behind wanting to pass.

One of our local ride leaders suggest that we split pacelines at 6 or 7 riders to make it easier for cars to get by.

Orin.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Tom

They wouldn't think of holding up traffic like that with a car.

You might not. But car drivers do it all the time. Slowing down to look at a house for sale, a deer on the side of the road, dots in the sky...OMG I spilled my Starbucks. Happens all the time and they don't bother pulling off the road to let other cars past.


If I were in the situation stated, and I have been...in the vicinity of a flaky pace line. I sit up or stop for about five minutes. Screws up my ride in some ways, but makes it better in others. I want all those drivers annoyed by that paceline ahead of me, rather than passing me while they're annoyed at bikes.

[Ti Designs]

Originally Posted by barry1021

we were on a narrow two lane road with pretty steady traffic as people were heading home, and they were taking short pulls, maybe a minute, sometimes more, sometimes less, at which time the leader would move left to move to the back.

I say we just pull 'em to the side of the road and shoot 'em. A paceline where riders take short pulls - what kind of crazy idea is that???

[Peter P.]

Biggest mistake: pullng off to the left. Why cyclists, even my buddies, do this is beyond me. When you pull to the left you are going to surprise the car driver who is not expecting you to all of a sudden be twice as wide as a moment ago. Getting hit from behind in this situation is a very good possibility. My opinion is you should always pull off to the right. That way, the rider at the end of the paceline as well as the remainder of the line are already occupying that space on the pavement. The rider pulling off is protected. I don't care about the increased possibility of a flat by pulling off to the right.

This group wasn't the brightest, but no doubt they were being ruled by a herd mentality, so common sense went out the window. Unfortunately, on these types of rides, the strongest riders rule the ride etiquette and if they don't take the lead in these matters, then all ride decorum goes out the window.

As soon as you smelled something bad about the way this group was riding you should have put it back in your pants and taken the next turn away from them. Sounds like you did that. Good.

[palincss]

Originally Posted by Peter P.

Biggest mistake: pullng off to the left. Why cyclists, even my buddies, do this is beyond me. When you pull to the left you are going to surprise the car driver who is not expecting you to all of a sudden be twice as wide as a moment ago. Getting hit from behind in this situation is a very good possibility. My opinion is you should always pull off to the right. That way, the rider at the end of the paceline as well as the remainder of the line are already occupying that space on the pavement. The rider pulling off is protected. I don't care about the increased possibility of a flat by pulling off to the right.

One reason they do it, atmo, is that almost every article I've ever seen in a bicycling magazine or on the internet that describes how to run pacelines prescribes exactly this kind of rotation. I've never seen any article that advises that you pull off to the right, and only one that leaves the choice of side open to prior agreement by the group (Fred Matheny's article). Here are a few that tell you to pull off to the left:

http://www.cvcbike.org/club/paceline.html
http://www.valleybicycle.com/sprocketman_paceline.htm
http://www.forwardmotionraceclub.com...read.php?t=319
http://www.lostrivercycling.org/paceline.html
http://www.sdbc.org/core/includes/docs/pacelines1.pdf

Many use the same familiar diagram showing riders pulling off to the left. I don't know where this diagram came from originally, but I've been seeing variations on it for the past 30 years and more.

[Simon Q]

Originally Posted by Ginger

You might not. But car drivers do it all the time. Slowing down to look at a house for sale, a deer on the side of the road, dots in the sky...OMG I spilled my Starbucks. Happens all the time and they don't bother pulling off the road to let other cars past.


If I were in the situation stated, and I have been...in the vicinity of a flaky pace line. I sit up or stop for about five minutes. Screws up my ride in some ways, but makes it better in others. I want all those drivers annoyed by that paceline ahead of me, rather than passing me while they're annoyed at bikes.

Yep, if I end with a group that I don't want to pass or join I take a detour or a break. Unfortunately it is not easy to avoid groups where I ride but there are good ones and bad ones and I avoid the latter.