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  #16  
Old 11-21-2020, 09:21 PM
robt57 robt57 is offline
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Whats '0' ? the shape of the hole the nipple tears thru the rim bed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
The formula I've seen is:

Wm = (a-a0)^3 +(b-b0)^2 + sqrt(c); where

Wm = maximum weight of rider (in gm), not counting facial hair
a = number of rear spokes
a0 = number of rear sprockets
b = number of front spokes
b0 = number of chain rings
c = color of your bike
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  #17  
Old 11-21-2020, 09:37 PM
Blue Jays Blue Jays is offline
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My wheelbuilder typically does not favor Sapim CX-RAY spokes for most builds unless one simply must have aero profile. Somewhat flexy.
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  #18  
Old 11-21-2020, 11:21 PM
Mark McM Mark McM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
My wheelbuilder typically does not favor Sapim CX-RAY spokes for most builds unless one simply must have aero profile. Somewhat flexy.
Spoke stiffness is directly proportional to cross-sectional area. Sapim CX-Ray spokes have the same cross-sectional area as Sapim Laser and DT Revolution spokes, which indeed have small cross sections.

If one still wants aero but wants a little more stiffness, there are a few other options. Sapim CX-Sprint and DT Aero Comp spokes offer an aero profile, but have the same cross-sectional area (and stiffness) as standard 2.0/1.8 or 2.0/1.7 butted spokes.
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  #19  
Old 11-21-2020, 11:38 PM
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carpediemracing carpediemracing is offline
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Although I haven't quite hit 200 lbs, I haven't had a problem with the 18/24H Bastognes aka Ardennes that I bought in 2010. In fact I bought a slew of HED wheels that year, Jet 6/9 (same spoke count, probably similar rim), Stinger 6 (18/24), and, later, Stinger 7/9 (18/24) and Stinger 4 (18). The Stinger 4 is pretty flexible laterally but otherwise the wheels have served me well. I've raced, trained, and flown with the Bastognes. 23c tires the entire time. If I was a bit heavier I'd run a slightly wider tire on them.

I was at 200 lbs when I bought an original set of Eurus, steel spokes. I think they were 18/21? Or 16/21? Something low up front, 21 in the rear. Not only were they strong enough, they were really stiff laterally and my favorite normal/narrow rim wheels ever. And due to lack of 10s stuff and lack of money, I raced and trained on the one set of wheels for a season. I ended up with a second set. The first set is under a former teammate's bike, and still going strong. I have the front from the second set, and a local rider bought the rear after his hub broke or something. 23c tires only. Ditto on a wider tire. I'd take them mountain biking with a 2" tire.
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  #20  
Old 11-22-2020, 07:12 AM
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oldpotatoe oldpotatoe is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocipede View Post
Depends on the build- spoke type, rim type, what it's going to be used for.
What he said and the rider's riding 'style'. I had a light customer who beat the crap outta even burley wheels and have had some heavier that were fine with lighter wheels..so YMMV.
IO think in 'general', unless the rim is pretty beefy, I think the 20h front 'may' be a little underbuilt. Also remember, 4 spokes weigh about an ounce.
Quote:
H+Son Arch Type, Sapin x-ray, road only.
Thin spokes and low spoke count..even tho the Archetype isn't a 'light' rim, I think this depends hugely on the rider. Yes, yes, I haven't read the whole thread but I'm sure there are 'I'm a clydesdale and have ridden 1100 gram wheels over baby head rock gardens and they are as true..yada, yada'. BUT, I think 20/24 'may' be a little light, particularly with such thin spokes.
Quote:
Thanks guys, rider is 170lbs, so I’ll go with 24/20
well....there ya go.
Quote:
My wheelbuilder typically does not favor Sapim CX-RAY spokes for most builds unless one simply must have aero profile. Somewhat flexy.
CX-Ray and CXSprint are ovalized thin spokes. If I were designing these and thin, oval spokes are asked for, I'd do it but these VERY expensive spokes add nothing to the build in terms of reliability, or performance. When compared to Sapim Race, Laser or D-Lite spokes.
The 'aeroness', when ya put an unaero body on the bike is lost in the noise.

AND I'd use CXSprint for right side rear
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Last edited by oldpotatoe; 11-22-2020 at 07:24 AM.
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  #21  
Old 11-22-2020, 03:11 PM
GregL GregL is offline
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Short answer: yes, a 20/24 spoke wheelset can be plenty strong enough for a 200 lb. rider. Good wheel building skill combined with quality components will equal a reliable set of wheels.

Context: a little under three years ago, I built two, identical 20/24 spoke wheelsets for a friend and myself. We’re both amateur racers who wanted dependable, “everyday” racing wheels. Neither of us fit the bike racer mold. I used to be a 215 lb. hockey player (now down to 170-ish) and my friend Jon is 190 lbs. of single-digit body fat weight lifter. We both put down a lot of power. The wheel build specs:
  • Kinlin XR31T rims (offset rear), 20/24 spokes
  • Sapim CX-Ray spokes in front, radially laced
  • Sapim CX-Sprint spokes in back, two-cross laced
  • Brass nipples front and back

We chose the XR31T rims both for strength and aerodynamics. The finished wheelsets weighted about 1535 grams. Both wheelsets have been 100% reliable, with no trueing needed since they were built. Jon likes them so much that they have stayed on his bike full-time, even when towing his kids in a trailer. He claims towing the trailer is great training...

Greg

Last edited by GregL; 11-22-2020 at 03:13 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:33 PM
Mark McM Mark McM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregL View Post
Short answer: yes, a 20/24 spoke wheelset can be plenty strong enough for a 200 lb. rider. Good wheel building skill combined with quality components will equal a reliable set of wheels.

Context: a little under three years ago, I built two, identical 20/24 spoke wheelsets for a friend and myself. We’re both amateur racers who wanted dependable, “everyday” racing wheels. Neither of us fit the bike racer mold. I used to be a 215 lb. hockey player (now down to 170-ish) and my friend Jon is 190 lbs. of single-digit body fat weight lifter. We both put down a lot of power. The wheel build specs:
  • Kinlin XR31T rims (offset rear), 20/24 spokes
  • Sapim CX-Ray spokes in front, radially laced
  • Sapim CX-Sprint spokes in back, two-cross laced
  • Brass nipples front and back

We chose the XR31T rims both for strength and aerodynamics. The finished wheelsets weighted about 1535 grams. Both wheelsets have been 100% reliable, with no trueing needed since they were built. Jon likes them so much that they have stayed on his bike full-time, even when towing his kids in a trailer. He claims towing the trailer is great training...

Greg
As noted earlier, rim selection has a large effect on the number of spokes that should be used. The Kinlin XR31T is deep (31mm) and heavy (500 g) so it won't need as many spokes for a given rider size as shallower and lighter rims would. Lighter riders can easily get by with 16/20 spokes with this rim.
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  #23  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:49 PM
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Mr B Mr B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joevers View Post
I would not ride archetypes 20/24 at 200 lbs. Something stronger like a Belgium + I'd ride probably quite a bit past that
Any data available to suggest that Belgiums are stronger than Archetypes?
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  #24  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:58 PM
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fa63 fa63 is offline
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I don't know if HED rims are stronger than HPS, but I have 24/24 HED wheels on my gravel bike, which I often ride on really rough surfaces (not to mention I weigh 215 lbs), and they haven't needed to be touched in two years of use.
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  #25  
Old 11-22-2020, 11:01 PM
joevers joevers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
Any data available to suggest that Belgiums are stronger than Archetypes?
I'm not sure there's really data on any of this. They're wider and they're much easier to build to even tension because they're so even and flat out of the box. I've put at least 20-25,000 miles on Archetypes on various bikes and think they're fantastic rims but I don't think H+Son rims are on par with a Belgium +. They certainly don't seem as stiff. Just my experience, if anyone can put a number or data on any of these I'd welcome it, though I'm not really sure how that'd be measured.

In addition to my experiences the weight limits that HED puts on their wheels of a given spoke count implies they're up to the task of much heavier riders without more spokes.

And FWIW, the shops I've worked at have mostly built HED and H+Son rims.

Last edited by joevers; 11-22-2020 at 11:05 PM.
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  #26  
Old 11-23-2020, 07:26 AM
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oldpotatoe oldpotatoe is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McM View Post
As noted earlier, rim selection has a large effect on the number of spokes that should be used. The Kinlin XR31T is deep (31mm) and heavy (500 g) so it won't need as many spokes for a given rider size as shallower and lighter rims would. Lighter riders can easily get by with 16/20 spokes with this rim.
Here's one for ya..DT411 and XR31T rims...
DT411-32/32
XR31T-20/24

Same Bitex hubs

Both using Sapim D-Light spokes..which wheelset weighs less?

















DT411-1481g vs 1545g


The 'way' to a light wheelset is a light rim and adequate spokes for the rider..BUT, loses LOTZ of coffee shop points before your Sunday, 35 mile ride.
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