Thoughts on Emma Langly “win” at Nats?

[BobC]

Another option would have been just to sit up & bluff. Essentially "screw you. If I am not going to win, neither are you. "

She should have realized that they were both committed. Only one could wear the jersey. She could see how much they really wanted it.

Done that many times in the past for a lot less at stake.

[marciero]

Winning with class used to be a thing, and maybe it still is. But on the other hand a win is a win. No quotes or asterisks. There can be any number of reasons why a rider would pull another to the finish, simple poor tactics among them.

In the bigger scheme, cycling is unlike many other sports in that both individual rider and team viability and financial success depend heavily on marketing potential. So one could argue that the manner in which one wins, or tries to win and fails, has a lot to do with that.

[Gianni Bianchi]

Originally Posted by marciero

Winning with class used to be a thing, and maybe it still is. But on the other hand a win is a win. No quotes or asterisks. There can be any number of reasons why a rider would pull another to the finish, simple poor tactics among them.

.

Agree, there used to be a code among riders to win with class and good sportsmanship. This has changed over the past decade, IMO. I mean remember when that dick from Texas got taken down in the TdF by a fan? The group waited for him (likely out of fear of reprisal given his sociopathic personality)... but still.

Fast forward a decade and there's Steven Kruijswijk in Pink jersey at the Giro, miscalculates a bend, careens into a snowbank and somersaults to the tarmac. His break companion, Nibali, sees what happens and attacks.

Similarly, when Dumoulin had his issue at the Giro, in days past, the group would have waited or at least slowed until he got back on. But this time, again attacks from that group (and yes, Nibali attacked) but thankfully Tom crushed them.

My guess is money and pressure to get next year's contract means decorum and the unwritten rules of old, winning with class and good sportsmanship, have gone. I know I'm a dinosaur but I would rather not place than take a win knowing I wheelsucked my way to the top step. A win may be a win, but then you mark yourself in the peloton going forward.

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by Gianni Bianchi

Fast forward a decade and there's Steven Kruijswijk in Pink jersey at the Giro, miscalculates a bend, careens into a snowbank and somersaults to the tarmac. His break companion, Nibali, sees what happens and attacks.

Similarly, when Dumoulin had his issue at the Giro, in days past, the group would have waited or at least slowed until he got back on. But this time, again attacks from that group (and yes, Nibali attacked) but thankfully Tom crushed them.

2010 Tour, Contador attacked Andy Schleck when he had a RD malfunction/chain drop.

IMO, if the yellow jersey (or other top racer) has a mechanical late in the race, or crashes on their own, that's just racing, the competition should take advantage. The "gentlemen's agreement" should only apply early in a race, before breaks form, or maybe if a leader is crashed out by something weird (moto taking out pack or similar). Rough guideline, at the end of the day, these are pros and winning lets them pay their mortgage. And there's no "gentlemen's agreement" on race tactics - if you haul a better sprinter to the line and they pip you in the final 200m, that's all on you.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by Gianni Bianchi

Agree, there used to be a code among riders to win with class and good sportsmanship. This has changed over the past decade, IMO. I mean remember when that dick from Texas got taken down in the TdF by a fan? The group waited for him (likely out of fear of reprisal given his sociopathic personality)... but still.

Fast forward a decade and there's Steven Kruijswijk in Pink jersey at the Giro, miscalculates a bend, careens into a snowbank and somersaults to the tarmac. His break companion, Nibali, sees what happens and attacks.

Similarly, when Dumoulin had his issue at the Giro, in days past, the group would have waited or at least slowed until he got back on. But this time, again attacks from that group (and yes, Nibali attacked) but thankfully Tom crushed them.

My guess is money and pressure to get next year's contract means decorum and the unwritten rules of old, winning with class and good sportsmanship, have gone. I know I'm a dinosaur but I would rather not place than take a win knowing I wheelsucked my way to the top step. A win may be a win, but then you mark yourself in the peloton going forward.

I don't see these examples as relevant to the USPRO race. They describe what should happen in a leading group when a mechanical or crash or other "non-racing" thing happens. I agree that the sporting thing to do is bring the group back to where it was pre-incident and then the racing is on again.

USPRO was two riders playing different cards based on their relative strengths and their teams and only one could win.

[Nomadmax]

How many here think Contador was a good sportsman in the 2012 TDF when he left Andy and went on the attack when Andy had chain trouble?

Ironically, Contador won the overall GC by that very margin of seconds (only to be relegated after a failed dope test).

[Gianni Bianchi]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

I don't see these examples as relevant to the USPRO race. They describe what should happen in a leading group when a mechanical or crash or other "non-racing" thing happens. I agree that the sporting thing to do is bring the group back to where it was pre-incident and then the racing is on again.

USPRO was two riders playing different cards based on their relative strengths and their teams and only one could win.

My point is that it speaks to the change in racer's mindsets, which seems to have spread across any international boundary. Win at all costs, even if it means being a wheelsuck or taking advantage of someone's misfortunes... which didn't happen a decade or more ago (and if it did, it was rare and that winner was shunned).

[Tandem Rider]

Originally Posted by Gianni Bianchi

My guess is money and pressure to get next year's contract means decorum and the unwritten rules of old, winning with class and good sportsmanship, have gone. I know I'm a dinosaur but I would rather not place than take a win knowing I wheelsucked my way to the top step. A win may be a win, but then you mark yourself in the peloton going forward.

I have had versions of this done to me, skipping pulls but not outright sitting on for miles. When I saw it happening in a break I knew I had to force the pace hard or attack hard. If I could drop them I knew they were at their limit and just trying to survive. If it didn't work, I knew they were setting up for the sprint and I was going to have to keep trying in order to try and zap their legs because my sprint is my biggest weakness. I've also skipped pulls because I was on the ropes and just barely hanging on, I actually got pulled in once with a promise not to sprint, I made darn sure I was last in the sprint. But then I'm old too...

I didn't watch the race did she try to attack or scrape her follower off?

We didn't have their radios or directors in our ear so there very well may also be factors at play that we don't know about.

[nooneline]

Originally Posted by BobC

Another option would have been just to sit up & bluff. Essentially "screw you. If I am not going to win, neither are you. "

She should have realized that they were both committed. Only one could wear the jersey. She could see how much they really wanted it.

Done that many times in the past for a lot less at stake.

This doesn't work when the passenger has a big team behind. If De Crescenzo did that, Langley had the option of going "Fine, I've got a ****load of teammates in the break behind - reshuffling still gives us good odds."

I think a lot of this conversation is focused on the De Crescenzo/Langley dynamic ("Langley is a wheelsucker") instead of the dynamic between Langley's team and the entire race/field ("EF Tibco was in a position where they had lots of options.").

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by Gianni Bianchi

My point is that it speaks to the change in racer's mindsets, which seems to have spread across any international boundary. Win at all costs, even if it means being a wheelsuck or taking advantage of someone's misfortunes... which didn't happen a decade or more ago (and if it did, it was rare and that winner was shunned).

My point is that being a "wheelsuck" and taking advantage of others misfortunes are apples and oranges. One is smart race tactics, the other is unsporting behavior. As nooneline correctly points out, there is a lot going on here beyond just the dynamic between the two leaders.

But, as you say, the peloton will administer its own justice. We'll see if anyone refuses to work with EF Tibco or allow Langly into a break. My guess is this is fair play, and no one who matters beyond DeCrescenzo is giving it a second thought.

[trener1]

I am not sure how "new" this is, remeber back in the day at Amstal when Lance was in a 2 man break with a Rabobank rider and the Rabobonk guy just sat on for the last 10k and then just beat him in the sprint.

[Gianni Bianchi]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

My point is that being a "wheelsuck" and taking advantage of others misfortunes are apples and oranges. One is smart race tactics, the other is unsporting behavior. As nooneline correctly points out, there is a lot going on here beyond just the dynamic between the two leaders.

But, as you say, the peloton will administer its own justice. We'll see if anyone refuses to work with EF Tibco or allow Langly into a break. My guess is this is fair play, and no one who matters beyond DeCrescenzo is giving it a second thought.

I don't see wheelsucking to a win as a smart race tactic. But I'm old school and I couldn't sleep knowing I'd won a race that way.

That said... it's also incumbent upon the other break rider(s) to do something about it, whether it's attack the crap out of the wheelsuck or sit up and refuse to do all the work. To me it comes down to 'do i want to do all the work and settle for second place guaranteed or refuse to work and throw away a podium finish?' If you choose the former, then you shouldn't bitch about how the race played out.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Gianni Bianchi

My point is that it speaks to the change in racer's mindsets, which seems to have spread across any international boundary. Win at all costs, even if it means being a wheelsuck or taking advantage of someone's misfortunes... which didn't happen a decade or more ago (and if it did, it was rare and that winner was shunned).

There have been notable cases of "good sportsmanship", but I don't think the "win at all costs" mentality is new at all, in cycling or any other sport. Here's an example from 18 years ago, although it is not from cycling:

In the 2004 Olympics, US gymnast Paul Hamm was awarded the gold medal in the all-around competition. Shortly after the medal ceremony, it was discovered that there was a math error in the tabulation of the judges scoring, and that Hamm actually had the second highest point total. Hamm was asked to return the gold medal, but he refused to, citing that the results protest period had expired. So, I guess that's what the "Olympics Spirit" is all about.

[benb]

I don't think this is new in any way in cycling.

We maybe just have selective memory or are holding the women to a higher standard than male racers.

Also in the past when "everyone was more honorable" you probably just didn't get race footage as good as today and you just didn't see what was happening.

The only aspect that maybe changed this is race radios and they aren't that new. The DS is probably able to clue riders in more today on when they should be using these tactics than they would have been able to before radios.

[harlond]

Originally Posted by Nomadmax

How many here think Contador was a good sportsman in the 2012 TDF when he left Andy and went on the attack when Andy had chain trouble?

Ironically, Contador won the overall GC by that very margin of seconds (only to be relegated after a failed dope test).

You've left out the context: Andy attacked just before he dropped his chain. There's no version of good sportsmanship in which you get to attack your rivals and have them stop for you when you muck up your attack. As Ryder Hesjedal said at the time (paraphrasing), "When you draw your sword and drop it, you get killed." Several people here giving Contador a bad rap for that happening.