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  #46  
Old 11-03-2016, 10:03 AM
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MattTuck MattTuck is offline
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I've given up on 'professional fitters'. have had 3 fits. They're all over the map. It is not an objective pursuit, it is informed by a fitter's own beliefs, history and knowledge (or lack there of) of how to deal with certain things.

Ed, I think you're one of the good guys who actually rides with your client out on the road. Most just do it on a stationary trainer and follow a formula.
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  #47  
Old 11-04-2016, 11:56 AM
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Ti Designs Ti Designs is offline
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Originally Posted by MattTuck View Post
I've given up on 'professional fitters'. have had 3 fits. They're all over the map. It is not an objective pursuit, it is informed by a fitter's own beliefs, history and knowledge (or lack there of) of how to deal with certain things.
Given the quality control problems with the human body (no two are the same), the best a fitter can do given say two hours and a bike on a trainer is to apply a bunch of formulas and come out with a position. That's why I say bike fitting sucks. Given what I'm given, I'm never going to be able to fit anyone well, if I'm lucky I'll get them in the ball park. The thing is, I want to do better, and I'm more than happy to spend the time to make the process better - it involves riding my bike, I do that anyway. But for every fitter who wants to ride with their clients to get a better understanding of what's working and what's not, I can show you 100 websites that say "we can fit you perfectly in two hours and $350"

What Matt needs isn't a fitter, he needs a fitting consultant. The start to finish fitting doesn't really work - that's a general statement. Matt is always trying different things, looking for performance or just a better understanding, which has pointed out that the start to finish fitting doesn't work. The saving grace for most fit studios is that most people will never figure this out. Back to Matt's case, I'm sure he's tried something that has put him outside of his own range of motion, and found it didn't work. A fitting consultant would have eliminated the experiments that couldn't have worked, and in general, pointed him in the right direction.
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  #48  
Old 02-16-2017, 07:01 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is offline
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The professional fit I had a couple months ago accomplished a few things for me that were worth the $275:

1. PT assessment of off-bike movement - what's tight, what's tilting, how do my feet sit and my legs move - gave me some good things to work on around glute engagement and other muscle imbalances

2) let me see what a "closed hip angle" is and why I don't want a massive drop - moderate is just fine (I'm 6'4" and pretty flexible)

3) got my cleats in a good place

4) let me see I actually have a pretty fluid pedaling motion and neutral heel

5) gave me measurements I could translate to my next bike as a good starting place

I did go out 1cm on my stem once I got out in the real world, but other than that, things are good.

YMMV


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  #49  
Old 02-18-2017, 05:18 PM
nate2351 nate2351 is offline
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Originally Posted by Clean39T View Post

I did go out 1cm on my stem once I got out in the real world
Pretty common when moving from trainer to real conditions. It's hard to convince people on a trainer to go with the less comfortable option, but then again isn't this whole thread about how fitting on trainers sucks?
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  #50  
Old 03-08-2017, 05:50 PM
KWalker KWalker is offline
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I disagree. I have had a lot of fits. 95% of fitters suck. Zero actual formal or real applied training in physical therapy or kinesiology. IMO both are essential for diagnosing the root cause of fit-related issues and modifying a fit. From there most of the standards and formulas are closer than people give them credit for. The key is knowing why something is happening in the chain and where to best solve it.

My last fitter was able to diagnose a minor wiggle at the top of my pedal stroke to the t. X-rays confirmed his diagnosis. When I did some basic research on the topic, everything I found indicated that his tests were pretty standard for someone who is trained to identify such a problem. None of the fit schools can responsibly do that. From there he also had some experience or insight as how to modify accordingly. Without that knowledge it's guess work. His only drawback is his high cost, but he makes a living fitting pros and lecturing so the standard token rates most shops charge wouldn't make sense.
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  #51  
Old 01-12-2018, 11:15 AM
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C40_guy C40_guy is offline
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Originally Posted by guido View Post
Also known as the Observer effect...

To understand the Observer effect, watch the movie Kitchen Stories.

A bit difficult to find, and almost as much of a cult film, in certain circles as Tampopo and Jiri Dreams of Sushi.

Tampopo, by the way, is a hilarious knockoff of Blazing Saddles.
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  #52  
Old 01-13-2018, 02:34 AM
Kontact Kontact is offline
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Originally Posted by C40_guy View Post
Tampopo, by the way, is a hilarious knockoff of Blazing Saddles.
How you figure? Even ignoring all the side stories, who would Tampopo be in Blazing Saddles? The core story is more like Shane.
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  #53  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:57 AM
benb benb is offline
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Ancient thread I guess but I've been thinking of this cause I'm on the trainer a lot right now. Decided I didn't want to destroy a groupset this winter riding in the salt or something.

Anyway, I was really noticing how much head position affected my riding position last season. No different than swimming or skiing/snowboarding or motorcycle riding or something where head position is something that is consciously trained. You look at swimming and it's just about gospel that a bad head position translates down your spine and compromises everything else.

Out the road we mostly do the right thing and look down the road and such so we don't smash into telephone poles and other riders. That puts the head in a good position as far I'm concerned for affecting body weight distribution and such. But we don't really talk about it, especially in this new world where the only thing you need to do to consider yourself an expert rider is spend a lot on your bike.

You get in on the trainer whether in your house or at the fitter and you don't need to look down the road.. you're probably not keeping your head in position like you do out on the road. I'm pretty sure this has affected a fitter's impression of me in the past. They give you a power readout or something on the bars and nothing to see if you look up like you should, so you play Chris Froome and stare at the bars or something.

I've taken to putting a music stand or something in front of the trainer and putting my iPad on it with a video or something... if I put the stand at the proper height it kind of encourages me to keep my head in the right position. I don't actually like to watch video while I ride the trainer but it kind of helps.
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  #54  
Old 01-15-2018, 12:07 PM
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C40_guy C40_guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
How you figure? Even ignoring all the side stories, who would Tampopo be in Blazing Saddles? The core story is more like Shane.
Sorry, generalizing...I should have said "Tampopo strikes me as a tongue-in-cheek take off of the prototypical American spaghetti western."

Better?

But we digress...
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  #55  
Old 01-16-2018, 12:40 PM
KarlC KarlC is offline
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Originally Posted by KWalker View Post
...... I have had a lot of fits. 95% of fitters suck.
Sadly this has been my experience also
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  #56  
Old 01-16-2018, 01:19 PM
Gummee Gummee is offline
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I can tell you from personal experience that I ride differently riding easy vs riding hard vs riding on a trainer

...which makes fitting me on a trainer a guess at best

As someone that pays attention to how people are riding (I don't call myself a 'fitter' but have done it on occasion) I can see where people are off and can usually determine why.

I could probably 'fix' the people that are 'off' if they were interested. Most of them aren't interested in fixing their problems because they're 'recreational riders' not 'racers'

M
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  #57  
Old 01-16-2018, 02:23 PM
Imaking20 Imaking20 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benb View Post
Ancient thread I guess but I've been thinking of this cause I'm on the trainer a lot right now. Decided I didn't want to destroy a groupset this winter riding in the salt or something.

Anyway, I was really noticing how much head position affected my riding position last season. No different than swimming or skiing/snowboarding or motorcycle riding or something where head position is something that is consciously trained. You look at swimming and it's just about gospel that a bad head position translates down your spine and compromises everything else.

Out the road we mostly do the right thing and look down the road and such so we don't smash into telephone poles and other riders. That puts the head in a good position as far I'm concerned for affecting body weight distribution and such. But we don't really talk about it, especially in this new world where the only thing you need to do to consider yourself an expert rider is spend a lot on your bike.

You get in on the trainer whether in your house or at the fitter and you don't need to look down the road.. you're probably not keeping your head in position like you do out on the road. I'm pretty sure this has affected a fitter's impression of me in the past. They give you a power readout or something on the bars and nothing to see if you look up like you should, so you play Chris Froome and stare at the bars or something.

I've taken to putting a music stand or something in front of the trainer and putting my iPad on it with a video or something... if I put the stand at the proper height it kind of encourages me to keep my head in the right position. I don't actually like to watch video while I ride the trainer but it kind of helps.
I think this is a good comment. I also think a quality fitter will be aware of this and help you get into a more "normal" position. My current fitter, after the 30-45 minute physical work-up off the bike, will have me ride for ~10 minutes on the trainer before saying anything. Then over the course of the fit he will order me to change cadence, big to little ring, drops to hoods, etc etc. The point is he's making me actually ride a bit. It takes more time, but I don't end up feeling like I was just sitting in a hamster wheel the whole time - and my fit has now allowed me to avoid some nasty back and leg issues that had plagued me after other "pro" fits.

There are quality fitters out there. As KWalker eluded to, that usually means they've got a stronger understanding of physiology than your typical bike-mechanic-turned-fitbike-professional

Edit: One other major component I don't see mentioned is the responsibility of the person being fitted. Just like with any sort of physical therapy, if you want to get the most out of the session - you've got to provide feedback! Pay attention to how things are feeling and share that.

Oh, and a single fit session may not be the entire answer. Your body needs to adjust. This is why my current fitter schedules at least one follow-up within the first month after the initial fit and he "warranties" for long after that first session.

Last edited by Imaking20; 01-16-2018 at 02:44 PM.
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  #58  
Old 07-07-2018, 06:56 PM
bigreen505 bigreen505 is offline
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Bumping this one back up because I've been thinking about it lately, as much of my day job is spent considering how the body works. I've had two main fits. The first was some guy at the local bike shop who may or may not have had any significant training (it was a Serotta dealer for whatever that's worth). He put me on the trainer and had me pedal. After scratching his head a bit, he had me get a 1 cm shorter stem, moved my saddle up 1 cm, and moved my cleats and put shims under them. Whenever I got on the bike, it was extremely stretched out (uncomfortably so), but after about five miles I settled into the position. Cost for the fit was $150 and took about an hour.

The second fit was at the famed Boulder Center for Sports Medicine and was the full monty. I should mention this was on a different bike (the previous one cracked). There was a "fitter" (aka assistant) and a physical therapist, who really did the fit. The physio immediately noticed that an old arm injury was pulling me to the left of the bike and messing up my position and pedaling on the bike. He raised and shortened my stem (ultimately putting on a 90 cm, 28 degree rise stem) until that problem went away. Then they fit me with the motion capture balls and did what I assume is the same as the Retul fit. They adjusted my saddle aft and up, shortened my crank, and took out the shims in my cleats until I was as close to the perfect position on the bike and pedaling as round a stroke as possible. Cost for the fit was (IIRC) $700 (partially covered by insurance as a medical procedure) and took two hours.

So which was better? The fit at the local shop by miles. When I get on the BCSM fit bike, it is immediately comfortable and balanced -- exactly the opposite of the LBS fit. However, after a couple hours on the bike, it starts to feel very cramped and I just want to be off the bike. Downhill there is a big difference in the way the bikes handle. I thought this was because of differences in the frames, but I think it is differences in the fit. On the LBS fit bike, it is really too long and the frame probably too big (I bought the bike from the forum and the size was misrepresented), so to comfortably be in the drops, I have to slide my weight forward. On the BCSM fit, to get low, I have to slide my weight back, like you might do on mountain bike. This messes with weight distribution and the bike gets sketchy.

So, again, which is the correct fit? Honestly, neither, but clearly the guy at the local shop armed with nothing more than some wrenches, cleat wedges, a block of wood and a tape measure had a better feel for how a human body moves on a bike. This gets back to the comment about how good are most fitters. BCSM is very dogmatic about getting the rider into a very specific position and they have the data to back up the superiority of that position, but they are unwilling to deviate from their numbers and formulae.

Last edited by bigreen505; 07-07-2018 at 10:51 PM.
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  #59  
Old 07-07-2018, 07:22 PM
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Hellgate Hellgate is offline
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Did you ask for your money back? Did they sell you the parts too?

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  #60  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:04 PM
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so did you do a self fit, or change the 9cm stem to a 10 with lower slope? Did you try to solve it yourself? or are you still waiting for a pro to do it for you? can you let go of the bars while pedaling in a relative light gear and not fall forward? if the saddle is in a spot where the hips don't rock when pedaling then move the saddle back till you can let go of the bars and not fall forward, adjust stem length as needed.
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Last edited by cmg; 07-10-2018 at 04:18 PM.
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