Road 1x discussion thread

[twors]

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/08/31...roach-1x-road/

[NHAero]

I just did a 1x11 conversion of a 2x10 bike (the CAAD10 I bought this spring). I end up with less top end that I don't need (101" top instead of 110") and one more step in the range between 40" and 75", where I spend most of my time riding. What I give up is the 13 to 12 step in favor of a much larger jump at the top when I go 13 to 11. I can see that if I rode in pacelines that would matter, otherwise it doesn't. Where I live isn't hilly, I get a 33" to 101" range which is plenty. As others have mentioned in their case, it's not my only bike. The Anderson is being converted from 3x9 to 2x11, and that gives me two full steps below the CAAD10. The Bob Jackson, still 3x9, gets down to a 21" gear with the granny.

[Rekalcitrant]

I think the “why” question is legit. My answer is that the 1x system is simpler and easier to keep operational on a bike I ride through the winter and generally abuse. It’s one less shifter, cable, and derailleur to worry about, and it’s easier to scrape salt and other crud off a single ring. Also, I confess that after a few years of racing CX with 1x, I just got used to not having to devote any mental energy to keeping track of which front ring I was/should be in. Lastly, I have had a FD fail in a race (at the joint on the band of a campy record derailleur) and the only time I have dropped a chain was an admittedly erratic shift after I realized I had left myself in the big ring on a hill that was steeper than expected. All this said, I still race 2x on the road.

[Bonesbrigade]

Originally Posted by Wayne77

LOVE my 1X setup on my gravel bike though!

It's interesting you say this - I've tried 1x setups on all my bikes at one point or another, but it's my gravel bike that would be the worst candidate for a 1x system! The varying terrain is just too extreme - super fast pedaling sections and super slow technical climbs, AND tight spacing for racing. A lot of the gravel races I've done involve pack racing and being on the limit, so optimal cadence is a priority.

[ltwtsculler91]

Originally Posted by Rekalcitrant

I think the “why” question is legit. My answer is that the 1x system is simpler and easier to keep operational on a bike I ride through the winter and generally abuse. It’s one less shifter, cable, and derailleur to worry about, and it’s easier to scrape salt and other crud off a single ring. Also, I confess that after a few years of racing CX with 1x, I just got used to not having to devote any mental energy to keeping track of which front ring I was/should be in. Lastly, I have had a FD fail in a race (at the joint on the band of a campy record derailleur) and the only time I have dropped a chain was an admittedly erratic shift after I realized I had left myself in the big ring on a hill that was steeper than expected. All this said, I still race 2x on the road.

This is exactly what I've arrived to. I have my Trek Boone which I use for winter riding, gravel, and CX (well the 1 race this year, more next) and find the 1x is great for exactly that. It's one less thing to worry about and still gives me the right gear spread and steps for those longer winter cruises or rough roads. I'm running Force 1x with a 42t front and 11-32 rear which is great for all but the fastest group rides. I think for CX next year I'll try a 40t front ring though

[Wayne77]

Originally Posted by Bonesbrigade

It's interesting you say this - I've tried 1x setups on all my bikes at one point or another, but it's my gravel bike that would be the worst candidate for a 1x system! The varying terrain is just too extreme - super fast pedaling sections and super slow technical climbs, AND tight spacing for racing. A lot of the gravel races I've done involve pack racing and being on the limit, so optimal cadence is a priority.

I respectfully disagree. But I think it comes down to what types of gravel races you do. Maybe your gravel racing experience involves events where the pack stays together throughout the race due to much less long climbing or technical descents that break things up really quick. For me, and apparently many others, the 1X positives far outweigh the negatives for gravel racing. Some random points.

- Many of the top 10 pros at the Crusher in 2016 and 2017 were on 1X drive trains. I was at the start standing right next to Dave Zabriskie - he was on a 3T Exploro with a 1X wide range cassette. Dave is retired and had no sponsorship - that's his personal rig he's done the Crusher on several times. I saw many other Exploros and Open U.P.s there with that same drive train.

- Gravel races in my experience are never a matter of sudden shifts between super fast and super slo, like you get in XC MTB due to alternating loose very technical climbs and descents. The only situation I run into involving sudden acceleration is in pack riding on pavement sections, with attacks, etc. You mention super fast and super slow. Those factors alone aren't an issue, its the transition between super fast and super slow. It has nothing to do with technical sections, fast gravel, slow climbing, etc. In terms of terrain, fast transitions between the two are a non issue in the gravel racing and riding I've done. The only time you run into rapid changes of pace where you have to shift a lot or change cadence a lot is in the pack on pavement sections.

- 1X is lighter

- I agree with your reasons for road racing. I would never run 1X in any of the road racing I do.

- Zero gear overlap (that can be good or bad depending on how you look at it)

- Easier to maintain. One less thing to go wrong during a race. MUCH easier to keep clean

- In all but the the highest gears (at high speed pack on flat/rolling terrain...certainly on descending 2X presents an advantage), gear speed differences between the two are very minor. See the example below, based on bikecalc.com "Speed at Cadence".

- With a clutch system, descending rough terrain, especially washboard is SOOOO much more pleasant. It doesn't feel like your bike is going to rattle to pieces. I do the Crusher alot. That's a premier National level gravel event. Descending the "Col de Crush" in that event, there are sections with horrible washboard. I've seen my share of people with dropped chains on 2X drivetrains there. Not because of a chain rotating off due to poor adjustment, but having it bounce off. I imagine that's happening to people who accidentally roll through in their small/small combo.

- The downshift from a 46T to a 34T ring up front (which involve shifts of both levers to keep the cadence similar) when you're in a group and suddenly the road tilts upwards is far clunkier than someone shifting a single der across a few cogs. We've all been behind someone in a pack doing that downshift on a compact crank and they don't compensate enough with the rear der. Suddenly they are spinning like mad and they surge backwards.

- What has been your gravel racing experience on a 1X drive train?

- For pack riding I agree it is bothersome. It will be bothersome for pack riding on the pavement sections in a gravel race. However speeds are a bit slower and packs for the gravel events I've done only stay large the first portions of the race before the long extended climbs or fast technical descents occur...then things break up into small groups. The main disadvantage for me is running out of gear on a long fast descent.

Lets look at actual speed at cadence. See comparison below. For this example I'm comparing a 1X 10-42 and a 2X with 46,34 crank and 11-36. Spinning @ 90 RPM. 45c tires on a 700c wheel. Speeds are in mph.

4 lowest gears
2X low:
10.21, 9.08, 7.96, 7.06 (speed differential: 1.13, 1.12, ,9)

1X low:
10.73, 9.38, 8.33, 7.13 (speed differential: 1.35, 1.05, 1.2)

4 middle gears...for 2X examples for both the 34T and 46T
2X mid - in 46T ring, middle of the cassette
15.69, 18.16, 20.34, 23.04 (speed differential: 2.47, 2.18, 2.7)

2X mid - in 34T ring, basically the smaller cogs
17.04, 19.66, 21.24, 23.19 (speed differential: 2.62, 1.58, 1.95)

1X mid:
12.53, 14.26, 16.66, 18.76 (speed differential: 1.73, 2.4, 2.1)

3 highest gears
2X high:
26.57, 28.75, 31.37 (speed differential: 2.18, 2.62)

1X high:
21.47, 24.99, 30.02 (speed differential: 3.52, 5.03) <--- This is the ONLY gearing disadvantage for me

**Another way to look at the speed differential issue with 1X highest gears:

Mid range pack speed scenario

Lets say the pack is cruising along at 22 mph. The 2X guys are likely in the 50/17 spinning 90 RPM. The 1X guys are likely in the 40/14 spinning 90 RPM.

- There is an increase to 25 mph: The 1X guys could stay in the same gear and increase cadence to 104 or drop 1 gear to the 40/12 and keep cadence the same. The 2X guys could stay in the same gear and increase cadence to 100 or they could drop to the 15T and keep cadence the same.

**This is a complete WASH, a 1 gear change for both keeps cadence the same

High Speed Scenario

Lets say the pack is cruising along at 27 mph on a slight down hill. The 2X guys are likely in the 50/13 spinning @ 84 RPM. The 1X guys are likely in the 40/12 spinning 95 RPM.

- There is a slight increase to 29 mph: The 1X guys could stay in the same gear and increase cadence to 105 or drop 1 gear to the 40/10 and lower cadence to 85. The 2X guys could stay in the same gear and increase cadence to 90 RPM or drop to the 12T and spin slightly slower at 83RPM

**slight advantage for 2X (same gear 1X increase RPM by 10, 2X increase cadence by 6 RPM. Or both could shift 1 gear and slightly lower cadence)

[Bonesbrigade]

The way I look at gearing needs (for me anyway) - easiest gear needed, hardest gear needed, and spacing so my cadence is efficient on flat fast sections.

My 50/34 - 11/32 suits my needs very well, and I don't see any drawbacks or advantages for a 1x (I don't have an xd driver on my hub I should note)

My easier gear needs to close to 1:1 -34F 32r is great

My hardest gear 50-11 is definitely used a lot (I like lower cadences at high speed)

A lot of the group training and races I do typically have fast flat sections where optimal cadence desired. 11-13 jumps on cassettes are a no-go.

It really is that simple. The 1x setups I've tried haven't met my above needs. My 2x Etap works so well that I really can't see going 1x on my gravel bike.

[thwart]

Originally Posted by Wayne77

- The downshift from a 46T to a 34T ring up front (which involve shifts of both levers to keep the cadence similar) when you're in a group and suddenly the road tilts upwards is far clunkier than someone shifting a single der across a few cogs. We've all been behind someone in a pack doing that downshift on a compact crank and they don't compensate enough with the rear der. Suddenly they are spinning like mad and they surge backwards.

This issue can be addressed by moving to a Campy drivetrain... although it has to be one of the higher line models with the multi-cog dump feature.

Almost seems to be designed with this scenario in mind, IMO.

Thumb stroke with both hands simultaneously... and you don't miss a beat.

[Wayne77]

Originally Posted by Bonesbrigade

The way I look at gearing needs (for me anyway) - easiest gear needed, hardest gear needed, and spacing so my cadence is efficient on flat fast sections.

My 50/34 - 11/32 suits my needs very well, and I don't see any drawbacks or advantages for a 1x (I don't have an xd driver on my hub I should note)

My easier gear needs to close to 1:1 -34F 32r is great

My hardest gear 50-11 is definitely used a lot (I like lower cadences at high speed)

A lot of the group training and races I do typically have fast flat sections where optimal cadence desired. 11-13 jumps on cassettes are a no-go.

It really is that simple. The 1x setups I've tried haven't met my above needs. My 2x Etap works so well that I really can't see going 1x on my gravel bike.

I can see where you’re coming from. It really comes down to personal preference, riding style, comfort level at different cadences, etc. A pro-2X example: again using the Crusher, climbing back up the Col de Crush is brutal. Very steep 5 mile climb. You have to stay seated or you loose traction. Last year I did it with a 2X 34/46 with 11-36 cassette. That was just about low enough but I could have used one gear lower...just so I could spin faster. The year before I did it with a 34T small ring and 28T large cog. MISERABLE. I do like the fact that a 2X drivetrain allows you to go CRAZY low. You could run a 34 up front and 11-42 in the back with the right rear der. On my 1X 40/ 10-42 the 40/42 is about equivalent to my prior 34/36. For this year I’ve considered swapping my 40T front ring for a 38T...but then I loose some top end. That will be an issue if I’m in a pack descending the very fast 2-3 Miles of asphalt into the town of Circleville (comes right after descending the rough gravel of the Col de Crush). With a 2X I’d probably not have to make that concession.

Anyway, this is why I’m so PASSIONATE about Gravel: you get to obsess about every last detail & the concessions or benefits gained during various portions of the race. At some point during a race something can be a huge benefit...then it can change to a negative in a split second! It’s just such a fun thought process to go through! Right now I’m obsessing about the right bottle cage set up...need to find cages that won’t eject bottles when I hit reallly rough washboard at speed. It’s almost funny during a key descent during the Crusher...there are lhundreds of bottles ejected by people all across a certain section over the course of the race.

I’m also obsessing about the logistics of hydration and staying cool when it gets hot the middle portion of that race. The heat when climbing the sun- exposed part of the mountain has been the undoing of many a very strong rider. Staying wet and hydrated is key. Last year for the hot middle portion of the race I took two bottles for my cages and two bottles for my jersey pockets at every feed station. The two bottles in my pockets were used to continuously dump water down my back and also my thighs (dousing my thighs when it’s super hot helps me immensely)

My favorite quote, from one of the earlier organizers of the race I’ve talked so much about. Referring to which type of bike configuration: “Welcome to the Crusher! The only race that lets you choose your weapon with only one guarantee...at some point you’ll be very, very wrong!”

I think that sums up pretty well what one is faced with any epic Gravel race or ride.

As mentioned, I race road a lot as well... but I obsess about gravel far more than I do Road these days. LOVE IT!!

[Wayne77]

Originally Posted by thwart

This issue can be addressed by moving to a Campy drivetrain... although it has to be one of the higher line models with the multi-cog dump feature.

Almost seems to be designed with this scenario in mind, IMO.

Thumb stroke with both hands simultaneously... and you don't miss a beat.

Great point. I had 11 speed Chorus on my CX bike for awhile. As much as I love the ergonomics on the road and CX events...I couldn’t get used to it on single track. Especially steep / fast descents. Not sure why but I didn’t like it. I think part of it was I had a harder time with the thumb shifters descending that type of terrain. I eventually shifted to a 10 speed SRAM Red setup...which I really liked.

[etu]

what do you guys use for the left brake lever if you go 1x with shimano drivetrains.
is there an identically shaped brake lever without the shifter mechanism?

[Wayne77]

Originally Posted by thwart

This issue can be addressed by moving to a Campy drivetrain... although it has to be one of the higher line models with the multi-cog dump feature.

Almost seems to be designed with this scenario in mind, IMO.

Thumb stroke with both hands simultaneously... and you don't miss a beat.

Another question for Thwart and Bonesbrigade (who uses eTap): can an electronic setup be configured such that dropping to a smaller ring doesn’t require a rear der adjustment? I know it will adjust the front der when shifting in the back to avoid chain rub, but curious if it can work the other way around. I heard somewhere that some electronic systems are programmable to do whatever you want. Is that true? If so I wonder if you could set things up to behave kind of like 1X (probably wouldn’t be ideal in many situations) where you are only shifting up and down and it chooses the appropriate ring/cog combo to provide a consistent gear ratio jump across the board...even cooler if a Campy style dump works there as well. Just thinking out loud.

I so want to try eTap some day!

[Wayne77]

Originally Posted by etu

what do you guys use for the left brake lever if you go 1x with shimano drivetrains.
is there an identically shaped brake lever without the shifter mechanism?

Yes. SRAM offers a left hydro brake lever. It doesn’t have shifter internals but otherwise looks identical.

My set up is a left lever that has shift internals, but slightly modified to trigger a dropper post. If having a dropper post on a gravel bike is appealing (it isn’t for everyone) that mod is VERY easy. If I ever want to go back to a left lever that can shift a front der, all I have to do is add back a few parts that were removed. Love having a dropper post that can be triggered by the left lever. One less cable, and no extra button in the bar.

[chiasticon]

Originally Posted by Wayne77

Another question for Thwart and Bonesbrigade (who uses eTap): can an electronic setup be configured such that dropping to a smaller ring doesn’t require a rear der adjustment? I know it will adjust the front der when shifting in the back to avoid chain rub, but curious if it can work the other way around. I heard somewhere that some electronic systems are programmable to do whatever you want. Is that true? If so I wonder if you could set things up to behave kind of like 1X (probably wouldn’t be ideal in many situations) where you are only shifting up and down and it chooses the appropriate ring/cog combo to provide a consistent gear ratio jump across the board...even cooler if a Campy style dump works there as well. Just thinking out loud.

I believe that's di2 "synchro shift." Shimano says it "gives riders the simplicity of 1x11 drivetrain, with the added gear range and gear steps of a 2x11."

I have a friend that got it on a MTB and loves it.

https://youtu.be/P0pIqlOWpqE

[NHAero]

Not identical but pretty good match - TRP RRL

https://www.wheelandsprocket.com/pro...s-242999-1.htm

Originally Posted by etu

what do you guys use for the left brake lever if you go 1x with shimano drivetrains.
is there an identically shaped brake lever without the shifter mechanism?