Good GCN Video on retro MTB and gravel bikes

benb · #1 10-21-2019, 10:34 AM

I thought this was a really interesting video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC_xFpg_UmA

They compare some 1990s hardtail MTBs with the typical low travel front forks + rim brakes of the day vs modern gravel bikes. They use the Lauf True Grit as the basis for the modern bike and they test the True Grit setup with drop bars & flat bars.

Nothing terribly scientific about their ride testing but still very interesting. The True Grit has very similar geometry to 1990s hardtail mountain bikes. It would have been better if they compared a modern D/S XC MTB as well of course.

I think there is a lot to their thesis that modern MTBs are overbuilt and gravel bikes have taken off because they are essentially more practical MTBs for typical every day riding.. just like old MTBs were more practical than modern ones. I think there is some validity to modern MTBs being too downhill/jump oriented and not pedal oriented enough.

cmg · #2 10-21-2019, 10:57 AM

it's a fun video. I enjoyed the comparison, Sy looked hammered at the end of it.

45K10 · #3 10-21-2019, 12:10 PM

It is a good video. That Ti Raleigh with hydro rim brakes is sweet

Ken Robb · #4 10-21-2019, 12:53 PM

I love riding rolling single track through the woods but I would probably never exceed 15mph on that ride in the interest of self-preservation and just to smell the flowers---er--moss.

sparky33 · #5 10-21-2019, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benb

Nothing terribly scientific about their ride testing but still very interesting. The True Grit has very similar geometry to 1990s hardtail mountain bikes. It would have been better if they compared a modern D/S XC MTB as well of course.

I think there is a lot to their thesis that modern MTBs are overbuilt and gravel bikes have taken off because they are essentially more practical MTBs for typical every day riding.. just like old MTBs were more practical than modern ones. I think there is some validity to modern MTBs being too downhill/jump oriented and not pedal oriented enough.

Entertaining video. Thanks for posting. I have been tempted to flat-bar my Lauf TG, and it's enlightening to hear their thoughts on that set-up.

For sure gravel bikes have some of the same capability and limitation of retro mtb that make boring stuff more fun to ride. Though I disagree that modern mtb are making trail riding too easy...they make it more dynamic and fun. There aren't many mtb'ers looking backward.

That said, there may be some folks who would be better served by a short-travel set-up for their ordinary terrain. The spectrum is huge there.

benb · #6 10-21-2019, 01:42 PM

I haven't been a super active MTB rider in a long time. I still go regularly but I tend to ride ride out of my garage by myself, ride to the trailhead, ride as many trails as fast as I can in the time I have and come out. I always have to keep everything within reason to avoid getting hurt cause I'm alone and getting hurt sucks anyway. So like they said in the video I'm not going to go jumping off anything big.

It feels to me like what I see these days are guys much more likely to be making lots of stops on the trail and repeatedly walking up and jumping off big stuff and riding the steepest drops they can find as opposed to the way I ride.

We have "mixed terrain" rides here which are open to gravel bikes or mountain bikes, etc.. whatever you bring. Those rides are much more the way I have always ridden. When I've gone on those I 50/50 take the MTB or my gravel bike. (My MTB cost about 5x what my gravel bike did though, so there is a big difference in capability.)

I think some of this is what they are getting at.

My MTB is not retro like theirs but it's 15 years old. It has dual 80mm suspension and hydraulic discs. (It's got a modern shock and set of brakes on it.) But when I look at new mountain bikes it feels like everything has shifted to "go huge". I know I don't have too many years left on mine and I am still on the fence about what I'd replace it with. The next thing to go on it will be the rims, they're on borrowed time, and I don't think it is worth getting another set of rims. A lot of the stuff is crazy expensive with lots of stuff to break. Lots of MTBs > $5000 out there, etc.. For that money it's going to be really tempting to get a really nice custom gravel-ish bike instead.

Matthew · #7 10-21-2019, 02:59 PM

I'm in a bit of a dilemma as to what to do with my MTB. 2002 Moots Rigormootis that I love. All my buddies and the folks here are encouraging to go 29er. Problem is, I really enjoy riding the Moots. I have three road bikes and the MTB. Momma won't tolerate a new bike in the stable without dumping one or two for cash to get a new one. But I love all three road bikes: Moots Compact, Serotta Meivici, and Colnago EPS. I have never swung a leg over a 29er so don't know what it's like but there has to be something to the hype. Did a race Saturday where obviously 99% of the competition was on 29ers. I finished in the top half of my field and less than a minute out of the top 7. And even though it's a Moots in excellent condition I would have to practically give it away as it's "old" technology. Interesting to see some comparisons between todays tech and yesterday's.

benb · #8 10-21-2019, 03:40 PM

Yah I'm still on a 26er too and am really up in the air about it.

My wife has a 29er... I have rode it a little but I've never just taken it and pointed it down a trail in anger.

It feels like it turns like a truck compared to my bike though. I know it's going to roll over stuff better, but still.. I've been trying to ride around stuff my entire life when I go into the woods instead of trying to ride over/through it... big adjustment. That might not really be the wheels... could be geometry, her bike is not as aggressive as what I'd probably look at. I think her bike was about $1k but it was still more on the recreational side. Though not too much.. it's got a lockout fork, externally adjustable damping, etc..

The faddishness of some of the MTB stuff is over the top.. I remember way way back like 15-16 years ago someone really giving me a hard time that 26ers were dead and it was nuts that I had one. Mine seems to be working fine.

Jaybee · #9 10-21-2019, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparky33

Entertaining video. Thanks for posting. I have been tempted to flat-bar my Lauf TG, and it's enlightening to hear their thoughts on that set-up.

For sure gravel bikes have some of the same capability and limitation of retro mtb that make boring stuff more fun to ride. Though I disagree that modern mtb are making trail riding too easy...they make it more dynamic and fun. There aren't many mtb'ers looking backward.

That said, there may be some folks who would be better served by a short-travel set-up for their ordinary terrain. The spectrum is huge there.

This is where I am. I won't be giving back my modern mid-travel 29er anytime soon, but I do like riding some of the "boring stuff" and even some of the moderately challenging stuff on my gravel bike. There's a loop not too far from me that most people would consider "blue". I'll ride it with the gravel bike or the mid-travel 29er or my fat bike, and each is it's own fun, different experience with different line choices and different speeds.

bigbill · #10 10-21-2019, 04:57 PM

When I got my Dirt Road Racer from Garro, it was better than any MTB I had in the late 80s early 90s. The only thing missing was room for anything bigger than a 40mm tire. I rode it on rocky single track the first 8 months I lived here and the only reason I got a MTB (from Garro) is the ankle deep gravel in the washes that crisscross the trails. With a 29X2.5" I can blow through just about any loose surface.

pdxharth · #11 10-22-2019, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew

I'm in a bit of a dilemma as to what to do with my MTB. 2002 Moots Rigormootis that I love. All my buddies and the folks here are encouraging to go 29er. Problem is, I really enjoy riding the Moots.

Doesn't sound like a problem to me! Unless you count saving the money a new bike would cost as a problem.

In fact, it sounds like a great bike.

Iceman is coming up. Ever do that on your Moots? It seems like a perfect bike for that course.

Matthew · #12 10-22-2019, 12:57 PM

I have done Iceman, but I think the last time was in 2005. It was on a Trek 26er though. Back when 26ers were more the norm. Peak2peak is a race I believe suits a 26er too. Tons of fast, flowing singletrack with two climbs at the end of a lap. Not many roots or rocks where a bigger wheel would be an advantage. I will likely just keep it and ride the crap out of it. Won't get much for it anyway if I try to sell it. Will have possible issues down the road if I need a shock or wheels. Drive train is already a modern 1x.

nalax · #13 10-22-2019, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew

I'm in a bit of a dilemma as to what to do with my MTB. 2002 Moots Rigormootis that I love. All my buddies and the folks here are encouraging to go 29er. Problem is, I really enjoy riding the Moots. I have three road bikes and the MTB. Momma won't tolerate a new bike in the stable without dumping one or two for cash to get a new one. But I love all three road bikes: Moots Compact, Serotta Meivici, and Colnago EPS. I have never swung a leg over a 29er so don't know what it's like but there has to be something to the hype. Did a race Saturday where obviously 99% of the competition was on 29ers. I finished in the top half of my field and less than a minute out of the top 7. And even though it's a Moots in excellent condition I would have to practically give it away as it's "old" technology. Interesting to see some comparisons between todays tech and yesterday's.

Have you considered seeing if the Moots will take 650/27.5? Some 26ers convert very well (my Gunnar Ruffian) and some not so well (my steel Mojo).

pdxharth · #14 10-22-2019, 01:56 PM

That's cool. I figured you had done it since you raced last week, in mid-October. I don't know about P2P. I left MI in '97, so it's been a while since I did Iceman.

On a note related to the video, here is an email I wrote to my buddy last week. He lives in the Bay Area, rides a full-sus, and I know he goes to Downieville at least a couple times a year. I was telling him about a ride I did this summer:

Ashland was my first time taking a shuttle to the top of a mountain. Bike was a sweet Specialized Enduro. I did not hit the double black diamond section because my buddy had only ridden once before and he was a bit nervous, so we skipped that extra section.

The trail was pretty cool overall, but it was more like an amusement park ride than mountain biking for me. Most of it was just downhill, fast, with the technical sections thrown in. I could have ridden some of the technical stuff on my rigid bike and certainly most of the trail, for that matter. But yeah, the jumps and other man-made stunt areas I could not have done on my bike. Those made up about 10% of the trail. I don't know how to hit those things, so I mostly skirted around them. I got a little air in a couple spots. It was definitely fun to go as fast as I did, though, and I'm sure I could go faster if I did it again with more confidence.

The trail was built for the bikes. The bikes are so amazing that a regular, technical mtb trail is nothing to them. They are just too much bike. So they have to add stunts just so the ride is not boring. The bikes are overkill, to me. And that is before electric motors are added.

Compare that to my favorite trail with lots of breath-sucking ups and quick, technical downs, tight twists and turns, tons of roots and rocks, creek crossings, and switchbacks - it's effing challenging. My bike is all I need for that, but it is a real challenge and I am toast when I'm finished. Yeah, a front shock would help me go faster, but it would take away from the challenge of trying to clean the technical sections. It's all about the pucker factor to me, and I can pucker up plenty quick on my rigid bike without having to go all that fast. I prefer less bike to more bike is what it boils down to.

On the trails I ride in Oregon (not Sandy Ridge), it's like taking a 350hp SUV to go grocery shopping. Overkill.

If I could afford another bike, I would get a titanium rigid bike with slightly bigger tires, disc brakes, and a dropper post. That would take it to another level without suspension.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew

I have done Iceman, but I think the last time was in 2005. It was on a Trek 26er though. Back when 26ers were more the norm. Peak2peak is a race I believe suits a 26er too. Tons of fast, flowing singletrack with two climbs at the end of a lap. Not many roots or rocks where a bigger wheel would be an advantage.

Matthew · #15 10-22-2019, 02:18 PM

I think P2P has been around 14 years now. It's a blast, when the weather cooperates! I really think I would regret dumping the Moots even if a new bike would make me faster. I'm 52 now so my fastest days are likely behind me. And I have what may be considered an irrational love for all things Moots. Wanted one the first time I saw one in the mid to late 90s. I got one finally and probably shouldn't part with it. As far as squeezing in a 27.5 I'm not sure. I have a Rock Shox Sid on it and not sure a bigger wheel will fit. Got a buddy who works at a shop so I could try a wheel and see. Rear triangle may be too tight as well.