Yet another cyclist killed

[Octave]

Originally Posted by echappist

And I chafe whenever someone mentions: do you guys decide to stop driving to work because driving is dangerous.

The answer to which should be: driving to work ensures that there's food on the table and is a necessary risk (unless one could work from home fulltime); cycling is a leisure activity that does not rise to the same level as the way provision of sustenance rises on the scale of needs.

And for those of us who don't drive? and don't have a viable public transit option?

It should not be an assumed obligation that to exist in the world, which includes the right to work, should require driving. Cycling is not just a "leisure activity" for most who do it - remember that those of us on forums like this make up a small portion of the bike riding world.

[zambenini]

Originally Posted by Octave

And for those of us who don't drive? and don't have a viable public transit option?



It should not be an assumed obligation that to exist in the world, which includes the right to work, should require driving. Cycling is not just a "leisure activity" for most who do it - remember that those of us on forums like this make up a small portion of the bike riding world.

An important and oft-overlooked feature of the right to the road discussion. We roadies can throw in the towel and not ride (as I pretty much have) but not everyone has the luxury. I think about this when I think about my exit from the road scene but then I also think about the road scene's relative lack of interest in broader advocacy. At least cyclists of all stripes can ride one another's coattails (draft?) When it comes to arguing for bikes on the road

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[echappist]

Originally Posted by Octave

And for those of us who don't drive? and don't have a viable public transit option?

It should not be an assumed obligation that to exist in the world, which includes the right to work, should require driving. Cycling is not just a "leisure activity" for most who do it - remember that those of us on forums like this make up a small portion of the bike riding world.

Your scenario is logically irrelevant to the view i mentioned and is merely a tangent.

Obviously, i am sympathetic to the plight of people in that situation, but your scenario is not a negation to the scenario i described.

In my scenario, the stance posed by some is essentially, if one drives to work, one also stop doing that (to be logically consistent, b/c driving is dangerous). The implication is that if one deems cycling too dangerous and stops riding outdoors, then one should apply the same scrutiny to driving.

My response is a negation of the stance (as in, negation of if p then q is if p then not q) and arguing how one can maintain a logically consistent position by deciding to drive to work yet refuse to cycle indoors. You are arguing about situation re: if not p (as in, if one doesnt drive in the first place) which is not germane to discussion re: the validity of the stance, which hinges upon checking yes to the statement “if one drives to work”

Obviously, if one doesnt drive to work, then there is no logical inconsistency (regardless if one bikes solely indoor for leisure), b/c that person doesnt have to make a decision in the first place.

[soulspinner]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Amazingly, as you get older, you take fewer driver's license exams...backwards, IMHO

-.68 of a century driver

Ya. I think NY at least has missed the boat on this. Every x years retest drivers. State makes cash and we might be a little safer on two wheels.

[TimD]

First, very sorry for your friend and his family. Presumably he was out doing something he loved.

Second, I'm absolutely convinced you have to make yourself be as visible as possible. This means using bright strobes ALL the time, front and rear, and wearing lots of high-viz clothing. Especially on your feet and legs, which are moving. Unlike 'classical' drunk driving, distracted drivers aren't even looking at where they are going, so you have to maximize the chances they are going to notice you when they look up from the Book of Face. I am absolutely astounded by the number of solo cyclists still wearing oh-so-cool all-black kit, and recently called Assos out on labeling something completely black on the back as 'hi-viz'. But I digress.

Third, I wouldn't assume a self-driving car is less likely to hit you on your bike (or a pedestrian) than is a 'normal' driver. The radar cross section of a cyclist is O(1 square meter), which compares to the RCS of a standard sedan of about 100 m**2. Optical / LIDAR recognition for collision avoidance is very new and is a very active research topic. Add background clutter and you may well be invisible to the 'advanced safety system' coming up on you at 45 MPH.

If you don't believe this, go search the 'tubes and count the number of research papers you find on pedestrian collision avoidance. This is most definitely not a solved problem. There's a point of view that if we trade tens, hundreds, or even thousands of pedestrian deaths for a substantial reduction in vehicular accident deaths then we're doing better as a society. Great plan so long as you're in a car.

Compounding the problem, again IMO, is that such systems lead to a false sense of security. They tend to cause drivers to pay even _less_ attention, or feel better about paying reduced attention to the task, because they falsely believe the very expensive 'self-driving' / 'autopilot' features of their shiny new <insert self-driving brand here> are going to keep them out of trouble.

Long ago I had a very smart friend recount the destruction of his new M-B 300E after sliding off, at speed, the ice-covered Sprain Brook Parkway in Westchester, NY. He protested "But I had ABS!" Yeah, you did, but the road surface had a coefficient of friction of approximately zero.

[alancw3]

not article:


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/22/u...s-traffic.html

[thwart]

From the article mentioned above, which is about 2018 having largest number of pedestrians and cyclists killed since 1990:

Some experts said that as Americans continue to purchase larger S.U.V.s and trucks, they may be making themselves safer at the expense of pedestrians and cyclists, who may not be as visible to them as they are to car drivers and would suffer more from a heavier impact.

“Larger vehicles protect occupants of those vehicles,” said Libby Thomas, a senior research associate at the University of North Carolina’s Highway Safety Research Center. “At the same time, they might be associated with some of this increasing risk for people outside the vehicles.”

S.U.V.s and light trucks are more prone than cars are to run over pedestrians, rather than throw them up over the hood, researchers said, making fatalities more likely when they collide. And because the vehicles usually sit higher off the ground, they may have larger blind spots, especially through the rear window.

Also notable in the report are the figures for crashes involving large trucks. While overall fatalities in such crashes rose slightly in 2018 — up 0.9 percent from the year before — the number of pedestrians and cyclists killed by large trucks shot up by 9.7 percent.

This is not surprising information.

[jadedaid]

It always hurts to read things like this. I live in NY and it’s just a tragedy waiting to happen here. These stories ring close to home as I had a car pull out on me once and I t-boned it at 20mph. It’s a minor miracle I could walk myself to the hospital, knowing things could have very different that day.

Stay safe everyone and take care of one another. The drivers don’t care.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by jadedaid

It always hurts to read things like this. I live in NY and it’s just a tragedy waiting to happen here. These stories ring close to home as I had a car pull out on me once and I t-boned it at 20mph. It’s a minor miracle I could walk myself to the hospital, knowing things could have very different that day.

Stay safe everyone and take care of one another. The drivers don’t care.

Slight thread drift but if the above or similar happens...CALL the POLICE, document, document..and call a lawyer...The perp's(meaning the car driver at fault)insurance company is just interested in saving $, not helping you..

Hope the above did the above...not judging, just saying..BTDT..

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Slight thread drift but if the above or similar happens...CALL the POLICE, document, document..and call a lawyer...The perp's(meaning the car driver at fault)insurance company is just interested in saving $, not helping you..

Hope the above did the above...not judging, just saying..BTDT..

In NYC, the police are d-bags. Call a lawyer.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by tctyres

In NYC, the police are d-bags. Call a lawyer.

That may be but documentation, even at the hands of a d-bag, is going to be required when ya call that attorney. Otherwise it's a he-said-he-said, type gig.

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

That may be but documentation, even at the hands of a d-bag, is going to be required when ya call that attorney. Otherwise it's a he-said-he-said, type gig.

You're right, sort of.
Let's have story time.

I got hit 2 years ago. A woman came from behind me in her bashed up Toyahondalawnmower beater. I had my blinky on, but this was before sunset, so doesn't matter, legally. She admitted she saw me. She decides to exit onto a one way street, driving through me. My frame and rear wheel are f'd. I've got a skinned elbow and a little worse for wear, but otherwise ok. Cops come and talk to her for 1/2 hour. Don't say much to me at all.

This is like 1.5 miles from my home. I go home a little freaked and email a lawyer I've ridden with. He says to get the police report and contact him when I do. He forwards me the cheat sheet for what the police report codes mean.

I get the police report the next day. It pins the entire accident on me. I was ahead of the driver on the right side of the lane on a two way street. I immediately complain and start reaming out the officer behind the desk. He connects me to the officer who wrote the report the day before. I ream him out. He agrees to meet the next day to go over the police report.

I email the lawyer. The lawyer says get the report changed, and kiss the police officer's @ss if necessary. I swallow a sweetness pill and am complimentary during the meeting the next day.

He changed the report to say that she failed to yield. Within a week, the driver's insurance had contacted me to make sure I was OK. Everything I was wearing that was scratched and my bike were replaced.

So, yeah, you need a police report. Yeah, you need a lawyer, and yeah, NYC cops are d-bags.

[tctyres]

Also, I give any car with front or rear end damage a wide berth -- also delivery vans and trucks. All those drivers don't care. You're better off playing it safe.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by tctyres

You're right, sort of.
Let's have story time.

I got hit 2 years ago. A woman came from behind me in her bashed up Toyahondalawnmower beater. I had my blinky on, but this was before sunset, so doesn't matter, legally. She admitted she saw me. She decides to exit onto a one way street, driving through me. My frame and rear wheel are f'd. I've got a skinned elbow and a little worse for wear, but otherwise ok. Cops come and talk to her for 1/2 hour. Don't say much to me at all.

This is like 1.5 miles from my home. I go home a little freaked and email a lawyer I've ridden with. He says to get the police report and contact him when I do. He forwards me the cheat sheet for what the police report codes mean.

I get the police report the next day. It pins the entire accident on me. I was ahead of the driver on the right side of the lane on a two way street. I immediately complain and start reaming out the officer behind the desk. He connects me to the officer who wrote the report the day before. I ream him out. He agrees to meet the next day to go over the police report.

I email the lawyer. The lawyer says get the report changed, and kiss the police officer's @ss if necessary. I swallow a sweetness pill and am complimentary during the meeting the next day.

He changed the report to say that she failed to yield. Within a week, the driver's insurance had contacted me to make sure I was OK. Everything I was wearing that was scratched and my bike were replaced.

So, yeah, you need a police report. Yeah, you need a lawyer, and yeah, NYC cops are d-bags.

I get it and hind sight is 20/20..I'm sure knowing what you know now, you would have entered the 'conversation' so that the obviously her fault(Hit anybody from behind..)driver would have been seen as the 'perp'...

Glad it worked out tho...

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I get it and hind sight is 20/20..I'm sure knowing what you know now, you would have entered the 'conversation' so that the obviously her fault(Hit anybody from behind..)driver would have been seen as the 'perp'...

Glad it worked out tho...

Totally!
And you've always got to sweet talk the cops. Doesn't matter who you are or what you look like. No bull. Just nice.