Mosaic RT-1 Pricing // Custom frame pricing

[many_styles]

Does this apply to their custom Ti frames too?

I’m debating on a Ti from them, Bingham or even FireFly.


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[prototoast]

Originally Posted by bob heinatz

They jumped their prices a few years ago with no improvement in their product. I don't remember the reason why but I remember that it made no sense to me to dramatically raise their prices.

When you can buy a Erikson, Holland, Hampsten, FF, ect for 1K - 2k less it doesn't make any sense to consider this brand.

Once you add in all the features that are included in the price of a Mosaic, the price differential gets a lot smaller. Paint can easily run $1000-1500. Internal routing can add quite a bit too--I had one titanium builder quote me at $300 per hole to add internal routing. So with that builder, di2 routing would add $900 and brake routing would be $600. Now that's probably on the high end for internal routing, but

There are a lot of builders out there who can get you in the door with a titanium frame for around $4000, but if you want all the bells and whistles, I think it would be hard to find all all the features included in Mosaic's 1-series for substantially less than they're offering.

[jwin]

Why is it that custom bikes are so expensive? I get the art form idea and the idea that it's MUSA (or otherwise), manufactured by hand, and a white glove experience.

But if the goal is to get a good riding bike with custom geometry it seems that the price should only be marginally more than big box Taiwanese bikes. Maybe I am in the dark, but I am surprised that an out-sourced assembly line custom geometry bikes don't exist.

I guess there is Waltly, but it seems more of a roll-your-own geo and there's no high quality storefront.

[many_styles]

Custom is the key word here. Time spent on someone’s frame = labor, and paying the bills to compensate everyone who had a hand in making that frame. Even the unsexy things like administrative costs.

Mass produced: manufacturers design the bike at the front end of the process, and let machines and streamlining processes churn out frame quickly.


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[fried bake]

Carver also outsources in the far east and I’ve looked into that option previously, but if I’m honest, the brand doesn’t excite me. I presume the price point of Mosaic and other high end manufacturers reflect this. Whether and how soon this will change is anybody’s guess.


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[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by jwin

Why is it that custom bikes are so expensive? I get the art form idea and the idea that it's MUSA (or otherwise), manufactured by hand, and a white glove experience.

But if the goal is to get a good riding bike with custom geometry it seems that the price should only be marginally more than big box Taiwanese bikes. Maybe I am in the dark, but I am surprised that an out-sourced assembly line custom geometry bikes don't exist.

I guess there is Waltly, but it seems more of a roll-your-own geo and there's no high quality storefront.

Why when custom builders don't have:

-- Economies of scale
-- Low labor costs
-- Dedicated pipeline of annual buying from distributors and wholesalers

Yeah, the overhead is lower, but you're taking away so many competitive advantages the large builders have that drive down their cost per unit.

[jwin]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Why when custom builders don't have:

-- Economies of scale
-- Low labor costs
-- Dedicated pipeline of annual buying from distributors and wholesalers

Yeah, the overhead is lower, but you're taking away so many competitive advantages the large builders have that drive down their cost per unit.

I'm not expecting builders like Mosaic, Moots, Firefly, etc. to even come close to the price of big box Taiwanese bikes, but I'm wondering if the economies of scale and low labor costs can still be applied to outsourced custom-geo Taiwanese bikes. It doesn't seem like there is an offering for this right now.

Imagine you could get a Taiwanese steel or Ti frame for $1500 with the exact geometry you're looking for. I'm not sure exactly how factory manufacturing is done, but the economies of scale and labor cost must at least be a factor in reducing the cost over small shops in the US.

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by jwin

Why is it that custom bikes are so expensive? I get the art form idea and the idea that it's MUSA (or otherwise), manufactured by hand, and a white glove experience.

"Expensive" covers a vast range.

Most ti builders who offer what Mosaic claim: MUSA, sterling reputation, hand-crafted, custom geometry, great customer interaction, lifelong service, even some degree of "art form ideas", white glove treatment, etc, do not approach or exceed the $6,900 Mosaic prices quoted here.

$6,900 f/f/paint is a completely absurd number when one really thinks about. As bob heinatz and others point out, that's not simply "keeping the lights on" money, unless those are incredibly expensive lights as well as Boulder, CO rent somehow equivalent to UES NYC or Pacific Heights SF $/sf. Price other top USA custom titanium builders and see. Say base prices start at $3,000-$3,500 for a 3/2.5 straight-gauge custom frame only and go up from there; it is very hard to reach $6,900, apples to apples (ie flourish to flourish), from almost all of those other also excellent builders.

I see that you are located in Seattle, You may know/of the local legend and titanium master builder there, Bill Davidson. Without knowing his price list, I would bet on at least 5 things: that he can offer 1) a frame equal to a Mosaic, with 2) custom geometry equal to a Mosaic, with 3) service equal to a Mosaic, with 4) a ride equal to a Mosaic, at 5) a price substantially lower than a Mosaic, again apples/apples. And Bill Davidson is by no means the only expert builder in the USA more than capable of delivering that.

Custom titanium is expensive, yes, but most are not in the Mosaic stratosphere.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by jwin

I'm not expecting builders like Mosaic, Moots, Firefly, etc. to even come close to the price of big box Taiwanese bikes, but I'm wondering if the economies of scale and low labor costs can still be applied to outsourced custom-geo Taiwanese bikes. It doesn't seem like there is an offering for this right now.

Imagine you could get a Taiwanese steel or Ti frame for $1500 with the exact geometry you're looking for. I'm not sure exactly how factory manufacturing is done, but the economies of scale and labor cost must at least be a factor in reducing the cost over small shops in the US.

There is, Colossi is one example. https://www.colossiv5.com/our-juice

Others have mentioned Walty. They exist, but there's risks that come with all that.

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by jwin

I'm not expecting builders like Mosaic, Moots, Firefly, etc. to even come close to the price of big box Taiwanese bikes, but I'm wondering if the economies of scale and low labor costs can still be applied to outsourced custom-geo Taiwanese bikes. It doesn't seem like there is an offering for this right now.

I guess that there is no substantial enough demand/market (yet?) for that third niche, or if it would ever even make real economic sense.

One the one hand there are "budget" titanium brands such as Waltly and Carver already mentioned here; Rewel or Nevi in Italy; Leon in France; J&L et al in Taiwan, all now making frames, and I'm sure at least several others.

On the other hand there are semi-custom/custom (in this discussion MUSA) builders among the many mentioned here already, from a Lynskey and Litespeed to Kish/De Salvo/Holland/Potts to Moots/FF/Seven to Mosaic. There is a substantial cost range there, far wider than the actual benefits range in some cases.

So between the two hands I guess there is not enough demand for a third range/territory. Who knows, maybe in the future an excellent slick marketer will figure some schtick out, but I think the experiment has sort of been attempted in the past (Macalu (Excel Sports) and Douglas (Colorado Cyclist) and Airborne, etc., come to mind) and did not ever stick.

With good cheap steel, good cheap carbon, good cheap alu already available in large numbers, I think "good cheap ti" has a really hard road to hoe in that field.

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by jwin

I'm not expecting builders like Mosaic, Moots, Firefly, etc. to even come close to the price of big box Taiwanese bikes, but I'm wondering if the economies of scale and low labor costs can still be applied to outsourced custom-geo Taiwanese bikes. It doesn't seem like there is an offering for this right now.

Imagine you could get a Taiwanese steel or Ti frame for $1500 with the exact geometry you're looking for. I'm not sure exactly how factory manufacturing is done, but the economies of scale and labor cost must at least be a factor in reducing the cost over small shops in the US.

High end products are pretty close. Add made to measure and I bet they are the same.


You can spend $11K for a stock high end bike or $13K for a bike that you exactly want. The difference isn't that much for what you are getting and spending.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Dino Suegiù

"Expensive" covers a vast range.

Most ti builders who offer what Mosaic claim: MUSA, sterling reputation, hand-crafted, custom geometry, great customer interaction, lifelong service, even some degree of "art form ideas", white glove treatment, etc, do not approach or exceed the $6,900 Mosaic prices quoted here.

$6,900 f/f/paint is a completely absurd number when one really thinks about. As bob heinatz and others point out, that's not simply "keeping the lights on" money, unless those are incredibly expensive lights as well as Boulder, CO rent somehow equivalent to UES NYC or Pacific Heights SF $/sf. Price other top USA custom titanium builders and see. Say base prices start at $3,000-$3,500 for a 3/2.5 straight-gauge custom frame only and go up from there; it is very hard to reach $6,900, apples to apples (ie flourish to flourish), from almost all of those other also excellent builders.

I disagree. I think it's pretty easy to get up to the same price ballpark as Mosaic from many titanium builders.

Just look at someone like Carl Strong, who is fairly transparent with his a la carte pricing:

https://www.strongframes.com/frames-and-pricing/road/

3200 for a base titanium frame
+400 for double-butted titanium
+575 for an Enve disc fork
+170 for a Chris King headset (MSRP)
+200 for a cast headbadge
+250 for internal brake routing
+1500 for a fancy paint job (not listed on his site, but I've paid $1500 for a Mosaic-level paint job, and similar to paint options listed by Seven Cycles https://sevencycles.com/paint/portal-scheme.php).

That comes to about $6300 for something comparable. I had a different builder quote me at $300 per hole for internal routing, so for brake (2 holes) + di2 (3 holes), it would have added $1500 to the ~$4000 base frameset price.

I'm not saying Mosaic bikes are a bargain, or that you couldn't find something cheaper, but when you start including all the fancy options that Mosaic offers as standard with the 1-series, the price really isn't out of line with what you'll see from most other titanium builders.

[vespasianus]

Originally Posted by jwin

I'm not expecting builders like Mosaic, Moots, Firefly, etc. to even come close to the price of big box Taiwanese bikes, but I'm wondering if the economies of scale and low labor costs can still be applied to outsourced custom-geo Taiwanese bikes. It doesn't seem like there is an offering for this right now.

Imagine you could get a Taiwanese steel or Ti frame for $1500 with the exact geometry you're looking for. I'm not sure exactly how factory manufacturing is done, but the economies of scale and labor cost must at least be a factor in reducing the cost over small shops in the US.

You can get a custom steel Tommasini with custom geometry for $3195. That to me, is a great deal. I think people forgot about the custom Italian option. If you don't mind the tube set they use, it is a great option.

But as a counter point, their Ti bike is close to $5.5K with disc mounts - making the RT-1 seem in line with the competition. Honestly, it is a free market. People out there must be willing to pay Mosaic the prices they are asking. Very nice looking frames.

[many_styles]

Originally Posted by nmrt

Last year I as quoted $6900 for Mosaic RT1 frame/fork. Price included paint. Though I am not sure what level of paint. Then I inquired on pricing for RT1 for frame and fork but no paint. It was still $6900.

That was the day Mosaic was not in any of my new bike or used bike buying list.

I think the rest of this thread has been fixated on this #. I didn’t go through the entire thread, but care to shed some light if there were able extras that were added to the frameset; internal brake routing, etc?

As you see some relies above, it can quickly add up.


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[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by prototoast

I disagree. I think it's pretty easy to get up to the same price ballpark as Mosaic from many titanium builders.

Just look at someone like Carl Strong, who is fairly transparent with his a la carte pricing:

https://www.strongframes.com/frames-and-pricing/road/

3200 for a base titanium frame
+400 for double-butted titanium
+575 for an Enve disc fork
+170 for a Chris King headset (MSRP)
+200 for a cast headbadge
+250 for internal brake routing
+1500 for a fancy paint job (not listed on his site, but I've paid $1500 for a Mosaic-level paint job, and similar to paint options listed by Seven Cycles https://sevencycles.com/paint/portal-scheme.php).

That comes to about $6300 for something comparable. I had a different builder quote me at $300 per hole for internal routing, so for brake (2 holes) + di2 (3 holes), it would have added $1500 to the ~$4000 base frameset price.

I'm not saying Mosaic bikes are a bargain, or that you couldn't find something cheaper, but when you start including all the fancy options that Mosaic offers as standard with the 1-series, the price really isn't out of line with what you'll see from most other titanium builders.

Sure, of course other prices approach Mosaic.
But the opposite holds true as well, and so push Mosaic further toward one extreme.
I'm sure an exact apples-apples spec price list from the top 20 USA titanium builders would result in a gap wider than ~$6,300 (Strong) to $6,900 (Mosaic), which is already a substantial gap imo.