What-a-ya think about the brochure??? (caution, Serotta content)

[laupsi]

Originally Posted by happycampyer

That was a very polite reply from Mike at No. 22. Given the terms on which the team from Serotta/Saratoga Frameworks parted, I would be shocked (no pun intended) that they would be willing to build anything for Ben.

The things that set a Legend apart from other ti bikes are all of the refined processes (butting, swaging, complex machining, etc.). Serotta has been vindicated in that virtually all of those refinements can be found in one builder’s bikes or another—but there is no builder that has combined all of the refinements of a Legend in a single frame.

These frames seem to be in a similar boat. Perhaps they are as close as one is going to get to a modern-day Legend, but the rear triangle looks fairly generic, and probably needs to be to deal with disc brake forces. The swaging on the downtubes has the “baseball” effect of early Legends/Ottrotts. Perhaps the shaping is done by a different process, and the gradual taper isn’t as easy to achieve(?).

The external rear brake cable is a deal-breaker for me. I recall Serotta having concerns about holes for internal cable routing with the triple-butted tubes bitd, and I hope they can figure this out with their current tubesets. From what I have heard, companies like Moots and Seven were losing sales to boutique builders who offered options like anodization, internal cable routing, etc., and they finally got on the bandwagon (or at least partially).

A limited run of 100 bikes makes no sense to me, either. Frankly, these look like advanced prototypes to me, and I’d hope that the second 100 are better than the first.

I own an embarrassing number of Serottas, and I have a lot of respect for what Ben has created in the past. Sadly, these bikes don’t excite me, and the puffery of his sales literature is tiresome. I wish Ben every success, but if this is what the first 100 bikes look like, I’ll wait for the next batch.

Bill, from someone who knows a thing or two about Serotta’s success over the years, to someone who fully understands the reasons for that success, thanks for the post. Very informative as usual.

[DHallerman]

Originally Posted by jpw

Something tells me he's reading this thread with interest, and taking notes. If he is then he has a chance.

I hope you are right. It was Serotta, and its name attached, that first attracted me to this forum.

[Elefantino]

Originally Posted by jpw

Something tells me he's reading this thread with interest, and taking notes. If he is then he has a chance.

Hope so.

And if so ... Ben ... internal cable routing. Sheesh!!

[Clancy]

Is that Eric Heiden pictured?

[SoCalSteve]

Originally Posted by jpw

Something tells me he's reading this thread with interest, and taking notes. If he is then he has a chance.

Don’t hold your breath. My understanding is that he hated this forum and wanted nothing to do with it. I’ve said it before many times, if Ben had taken his Serotta forum more seriously, he might still be in business today.

Dave Kirk and Richard Sachs both come to mind as having a huge internet presence and they are both very successful. Ben could have learned from this.

[robt57]

Originally Posted by adrien

Meh. Not sure I get it.

And me, I am sure I don't get it.

[Brian Smith]

Originally Posted by saab2000

I don’t love the look but I do love the simplicity. My Zanconato is similarly built and there’s no rattling.

These look like nice bikes but I’m probably not a potential customer. And that’s what he needs.

I agree that there's no more greater liklihood that these cables will rattle than there would be if they were routed inside the tubes. A careful or prudent mechanic might have used a few black foam cylinders over the housing between the guides/lash points.

I'll take a stab at why the photographed bikes dare to look a bit different with the external cables.
Colloquially speaking, when you punch holes in the tubes to let cables in, you either make the tubes heavier than they need to be in order to retain sufficient strength in the hole-y area, or you weaken the tubes by not doing that. The external cables design choice *might* be evidence that the tubes are designed to be as light as they can be rather than as strong as they need to be to accept some extra weakening holes. This is true whether the vendor is a newcomer, whether the enterprise has sophisticated fatigue testing equipment, or if you're just filling in the internal cable routing checkbox on the subcontractor's order form.

I would hope that in this case the choice has been made to retain the full strength of a tubeset designed to minimize weight rather than to conform to recent trends. Certainly the external routing could be done in some more aesthetically friendly ways, but I wouldn't find external to be a negative design choice. The tube design efficiency is my favorite version of why that was taken.
Alternative reasons could be... ride-able prototypes were built too quickly for machined parts allowing internal cable routing to be ready, or prototypes were build at reduced cost and the build was less expensive with external fittings, and/or the design is intended to be maximally mechanic-friendly.

[alexihnen]

I find the definition of success offered here by many to be rather...odd. Sure, one measure of success is still being in business, that’s simple enough. But to claim someone like Ben Serotta has failed because he didn’t follow a boutique artisan builder who sold perhaps 1% or fewer of the bikes Serotta produced...well, that makes no sense at all. Some guy with a slick website and cult following who produces maybe 20 bikes a year is successful. The guy who built a significant company that put out nothing but high quality rides in the thousands for decades is a failure. Some artisan builders have no desire to sell thousands of bikes and have others holding the torch, and that’s fine. They are successful in their right, but dozens of not hundreds of builders scrape for business and dream of having the success of Serotta. I don’t understand a world where Ben isn’t considered one of the most successful American bike builders of the past 40 years.


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[jtbadge]

Originally Posted by jpw

Something tells me he's reading this thread with interest, and taking notes. If he is then he has a chance.

I doubt it. These are all the same issues that everyone has been saying since the first of these "re-re-re-relaunch"es (as Flash aptly put it) and nothing has changed. Oh, there's a price now but still no specs.

Originally Posted by Tz779

wow. you guys are harsh.
sure seems like a lot of ppl want to see Ben fail.
i wonder how many would say the same thing if Aston Martin rose from the ashes to make the DB2 again.
if you want a flashy paint job and graphics, i bet Walmart has some.

No, people here want him to succeed and it's not going to happen like this.

[pbarry]

At least he figured out that the market is buying bikes with wider rubber. Iirc, when this latest venture was announced, 28's were as wide as the bikes could handle. Or am I confusing that with the alloy frames from last year? Price point is at least 20% high imo.

[AngryScientist]

with regard to drilling holes in butted tubes:

every bicycle in the history of the world has come with water bottle cage mounts right in the middle of the tubes, so i just dont buy that it's not a good idea to do that. simple reinforcements in that area are easy and can be aesthetically pleasing:

[PTinz]

Originally Posted by Clancy

Is that Eric Heiden pictured?

I believe that is Davis Phinney, anyone else think so?

[jpw]

Originally Posted by SoCalSteve

Don’t hold your breath. My understanding is that he hated this forum and wanted nothing to do with it. I’ve said it before many times, if Ben had taken his Serotta forum more seriously, he might still be in business today.

Dave Kirk and Richard Sachs both come to mind as having a huge internet presence and they are both very successful. Ben could have learned from this.

"If you're not listening you're not learning" - and if you're not learning you're making the same mistakes, and smart people don't make the same mistake twice. I've met Ben only once. We had a short conversation. He seemed smart enough. He should be taking note. If he's not then he may as well call it Epilogue and go off and enjoy his golden years doing something else.

[William]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

with regard to drilling holes in butted tubes:

every bicycle in the history of the world has come with water bottle cage mounts right in the middle of the tubes, so i just dont buy that it's not a good idea to do that. simple reinforcements in that area are easy and can be aesthetically pleasing:

Interesting point that makes sense on its face. I can't think of a reason why its okay to have two reinforced holes in a tube but it's not okay to do one for wiring? We've also had holes drilled into top tubes to run brake cables, holes in bottom brackets to drain moisture, holes in chain stays as well.





W.

[William]

Originally Posted by SoCalSteve

Don’t hold your breath. My understanding is that he hated this forum and wanted nothing to do with it. I’ve said it before many times, if Ben had taken his Serotta forum more seriously, he might still be in business today.

He must of been onboard with it at some level when he aquired it. Either thought it was a good idea at the time, or at least somone convinced him enough to purchase it. I do agree with you though that it was a hugely wasted opportunity. Had he worked it like DK things might have been very different today.





W.