Campagnolo Shamal HPW-12 - Exa Drive to Ultra Drive?

[Catnap]

Is it possible to swap out a Campagnolo Exa Drive freehub with an Ultra Drive one? And if yes, which model of donor hub will I need to use?

Back Story:

I recently purchased a pair of 9-speed Campagnolo Shamal HPW-12 wheels, with the intention of using them on a vintage bike equipped with 10-speed Centaur. I assumed that since the wheelset had a 9-speed cassette on them, it was automatically compatible with modern 10-speed cassettes. NOPE.

Turns out the rear wheel has an older Exa Drive freehub. Campagnolo moved from Exa Drive to Ultra Drive in the year 2000, and one of the changes was the freehub splines. More details here: https://branfordbike.com/new-page-1. It seems that Exa Drive 10-speed cassettes do exist, but they are both nearly impossible to find and also not available in the cog sizes I want.

Here's photos of the wheels in question:

[slambers3]

They moved away from exadrive a few years before 2000. You may have some luck with retrofitting the freehub from a veloce or mirage 9s hub, but you’ll need to use the corresponding cassette lock ring (26mm...? different than the 10s hubs)

[jemdet]

This stuff is the dark arts, and I've never understood that this would be true based on spline depth, but the page from Branford that you linked does say:

Ultra Drive is essential for smooth shifting on 10 and 11 speed sytems. It is also designed to work with all Campy 9 speed systems and chains. We noticed a large improvement in shifting with 10 speeds but only a slight difference with 9 speed systems. Both EXA Drive and Ultra Drive cassettes work perfectly with all past and current Campagnolo 9 speed systems. You can even mix Ultra Drive and Exa Drive cogs on a cassette.

I know a fair amount of campy-fu, but will defer to the experts on this.

[Mark McM]

The freehub in the photos is actually an 8spd freehub, not 9spd. The 8spd freehub body is narrower and has shallower splines than the later 9/10/11/12spd freehub body, and will only fit 8spd cassettes. Are you sure it came with a 9spd cassette? If it did, then it must have been some type of conversion cassette.

It is possible to convert to a 9/10/11/12spd freehub body, but there are several caveats:

1 - These wheels use the standard diameter steel (or titanium) axle. There were 9/10/11/12spd freehubs that fit these axles, but they haven't been made in many years. So you'll probably have to find a donor hub with the correct freehub body.

2 - The standard diameter axles were made in two different configurations, with different shoulder lengths. There were different freehub bodies built for the different axles, and these freehub bodies were not interchangeable with each other. What that means is if the donor hub does not have the correct freehub type, you'll have to transplant the freehub body and axle as a set.

3 - On 10, 11 & 12 speed cassettes, the bottom (largest) sprocket is offset toward the spokes by overhanging the bottom sprocket past the bottom of the freehub splines. On some cassettes, this will cause the bottom sprocket to press against the hubshell. You may be able to get around this by using a cassette with a larger bottom sprocket, which may be large enough to fit around the hubshell.

4 - Another side affect of the bottom sprocket being offset inboard is that the derailleur will be closer to the spokes. Using a larger cassette can also help mitigate this issue, by taking advantage of the fact that the spokes angle inward as they go from the hub to the rim.

[David Benson]

I was going to get into this, but Mark McM has said everything that needs to be said.

[jemdet]

D'oh, yes, and Mark McM explained it perfectly. I have an 8V Campy hub and the splines are recognizable.

If you do look to put this into service, Miche makes cassettes and lockrings for 8V Campy hubs in wider ranges. We're still talking a 28 large cog, but it's better than 21 or 23. They call it the "8 M" model, and they are typically available from the euro dealers. Pretty inexpensive and work fine.

Respacing donor cassettes with custom spacers is also an option, but a big headache IMO. The newer freehubs are longer and you'd be unable to fit 10 cogs in any case.

[Catnap]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

The freehub in the photos is actually an 8spd freehub, not 9spd. The 8spd freehub body is narrower and has shallower splines than the later 9/10/11/12spd freehub body, and will only fit 8spd cassettes. Are you sure it came with a 9spd cassette? If it did, then it must have been some type of conversion cassette.

Thank you for the great advice! The only thing I can add is that yes, it came with a 9-speed cassette that was made by Campagnolo. It was part of a complete bike with all Chorus components except for a Veloce RD and shifters. I checked, and it shifted accurately and smoothly with the 9-speed cassette.

That's why I bought the bike; for the Shamal wheels, and I just assumed since it had a 9-speed cassette on it, I was good to go.

Would this hub work as a donor?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Cam...d/164819258654

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by David Benson

I was going to get into this, but Mark McM has said everything that needs to be said.

Yup, mee too..except

The 9s freehub body onto a steel or titanium 12mm axle, just before the oversized aluminum axles, was only made for 2 years..1997 and 1998(and not all of 1998).

AND that wheels axle will only accept a Record or Chorus 9s FHB from those 2 years. Athena and below used a different axle.

Would this hub work as a donor?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Cam...d/164819258654

Unfortunately no..that hub used cartridge bearings, different axle and the FHB is not compatible with the Shamal axle/hub.

[Catnap]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

The 9s freehub body onto a steel or titanium 12mm axle, just before the oversized aluminum axles, was only made for 2 years..1997 and 1998(and not all of 1998).

AND that wheels axle will only accept a Record or Chorus 9s FHB from those 2 years. Athena and below used a different axle.

I found a post on the Campagnolo Tech Talk group on Facebook that recommends the FH-MI215 freehub sourced from Mirage and Veloce hubs from 2002-2006. There also happens to be one for sale on eBay currently.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1176...6729370996618/

However, your reply notes that I need a FH & axle from a 1997 or 98-era Record or Chorus 9s hub. According to the chart in the Facebook post, that would be either a FH-CH015, FH-CH115, FH-RE215 or FH-RE315.

Can you confirm that the later Mirage & Veloce FH-MI215 won't work with the hub on my Shamals?

Here's the chart from the Facebook post:

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Catnap

I found a post on the Campagnolo Tech Talk group on Facebook that recommends the FH-MI215 freehub sourced from Mirage and Veloce hubs from 2002-2006. There also happens to be one for sale on eBay currently.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1176...6729370996618/

However, your reply notes that I need a FH & axle from a 1997 or 98-era Record or Chorus 9s hub. According to the chart in the Facebook post, that would be either a FH-CH015, FH-CH115, FH-RE215 or FH-RE315.

Can you confirm that the later Mirage & Veloce FH-MI215 won't work with the hub on my Shamals?

Here's the chart from the Facebook post:

It will not.

[Catnap]

Thank you, sir! It sounds like I'll have to source some very esoteric parts, indeed.

Edit:

Are these what I need:

https://vintagenosbicycleparts.com/c...placement-nos/

or

https://vintagenosbicycleparts.com/c...placement-nos/

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Yup, mee too..except

The 9s freehub body onto a steel or titanium 12mm axle, just before the oversized aluminum axles, was only made for 2 years..1997 and 1998(and not all of 1998).

AND that wheels axle will only accept a Record or Chorus 9s FHB from those 2 years. Athena and below used a different axle.

It is true that Shamals used Record/Chorus level axles, and these (and the freehubs that fit them) were discontinued in 1998. However, all the loose bearing cup-and-cone hubs with 12mm axles used the same balls and cones, so the axles were interchangeable (when used with the appropriate matching freehub body). Athena and Veloce 12mm axle hubs/freehubs continued to be made in 1999, and these can be used as donor hubs, as long as both the axle and freehub body were transplanted. (The transplant should also include the locknuts and washers).

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Unfortunately no..that hub used cartridge bearings, different axle and the FHB is not compatible with the Shamal axle/hub.

Yeah, I forget to mention the 3rd type of axle - there were two axles for loose bearing cup-and-cone hubs, and one for cartridge bearing hubs. As you note, the cartridge bearing hub components are interchangeable with the loose bearing cup-and-cone hubs.

[Catnap]

bump - Are these what I need?

https://vintagenosbicycleparts.com/c...placement-nos/

or

https://vintagenosbicycleparts.com/c...placement-nos/

[bfd]

If you need a freehub body for a 12mm axle, it looks like Campy still sells it:

https://www.totalcycling.com/en/Camp...e/m-19016.aspx

You can also get it a 12mm axle Campy freehub body for Shimano 11 cassettes too:

https://www.totalcycling.com/en/Camp...e/m-22417.aspx

Good Luck!

[Mark McM]

Yes, those look they are the correct ones - particularly the first one with the yellow 'installation basket'. The photos of both freehubs show the set screw in the "lube hole", which I think only Chorus/Record had (I could be wrong on that). The 2nd listing shows the wire pawl compressor clip, which is used for installing the freehub on standard hubs. But the 1st listing shows the yellow 'installation basket' which is required for installing the freehub on FTS hubs (the standard wire clip won't work with FTS hubs).