Setting Up Bike Frame Manufacturing Business

[carrara.g]

Hello all,

It was great to read people's thoughts on this thread: https://forums.thepaceline.net/showt...97#post2930497. Given that people think there is still a lot of demand and space for niche brands, I have a couple of follow up questions.

Context: I am considering setting up a business manufacturing frames. I fillet brazed a frame (http://giovannicarrara.herokuapp.com...aComplete.html) 2 years ago with the guidance of a seasoned framebuilder and loved it. I have a lot of learning to do to become a better framebuilder, but am hoping my mechanical engineering background will help accelerate the learning process. This would be an afternoon/weekends activity in which I can put my efforts to making bikes customers love rather than ones that I'll hang around my house... I am considering investing in the necessary things (space, jig, welding equipment, and shop tools), but just wanted to get some of your input beforehand!

Just to be clear, I am not underestimating the amount of work. But I am not overestimating the number of frames I'd like to build either to start with either.

Questions:

1. Do people recommend this as a project?
2. Are there "dangers" in frame building that I should be aware of? (aside of dealing with flames...)
3. Is there any recommended reading for frame builders (more on business operations, not actual framebuilding)?
4. It would either be steel or Ti. Would people recommend TIG or fillet? I am a novice in both.
5. I would prefer to not do custom to start, is there a market for ots sizing in the custom frame industry?

Thanks in advance for your help, eager to read your thoughts (either to the questions listed above or general words of wisdom)!

[FlashUNC]

1) Go to the VelocipedeSalon forum. "Across the hall."
2) Check out the Frame forum, specifically the Mentor section.


Good luck with the venture.

[pdonk]

I'll summarize what you'll be told - build 40-50 frames (or more), ride them, give them to friends - have them ride them, then decide if you want to make it a business.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by carrara.g

[*]It would either be steel or Ti. Would people recommend TIG or fillet? I am a novice in both.

I would not buy a bicycle frame from someone without significant experience building frames.

most framebuilders who make a go of it on their own participated in some type of apprenticeship program where the learned the trade under the eyes of established professionals.

i agree that building a bike frame, from a manufacturing standpoint is a reasonably simple operation. building a frame for yourself or a pal is a different story than building one to a customer.

i wish you luck!

[Ralph]

Just understand building frames is a business. To be half way successful, forget riding your bike, or riding much. Especially if it's a side business. Do you have a family.....that suffers also. And the investment to get started (time, money, and experience) is probably way more than you expect. It can be done, but it's hard. Then if you honestly add up your time spent, VS what you get.....only a few make any money at it. And even if you make a few bucks....you probably will not come close to what a few more hours at your day job could bring. If you do it....be careful the experience doesn't sour you on cycling as a sport. And if you live in a city or town...and plan to build there...check your zoning to see if it is allowed. Painting a frame is (building a paint booth) is not likely allowed. (it wouldn't be where I live)

I would suggest you build a couple frame for personal use....and see how you feel about it. I do agree it's nice to ride something made by your hands. My favorite riding bike was made just for me by my son Jonathan Greene. (Jonathan Greene Cycles) And I watched him go thru the process you are describing for yourself. He's out of the business now.

[slowpoke]

Originally Posted by Ralph

Just understand building frames is a business.

Yeah, framebuilding as a business has the "boring" side of:

- making frames quickly (e.g. Rock Lobster makes ~100 frames a year, so 2/week)
- lengthy email chains with customers, and delivering at agreed upon timelines
- charging appropriately for their work so the business can be self-sustaining in the long run (or be married to someone who's very supportive and financially stable)
- marketing and branding to attract new customers

Have you freelanced before, or run your own business?

[buddybikes]

Find a niche, not just another frame builder. Look what Firefly has done.

If it were me, and I had the energy I would build custom trikes, ideally one with Fazua or similar boost. Older people tend to have more $$$ and some of us body breaking down. This would really challenge your engineering skills.

[unterhausen]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

I would not buy a bicycle frame from someone without significant experience building frames.

My guess is that you would. My data point being that Trek sold my 4th frame.

I think it's a tough business that doesn't pay very much. In normal times, it's a lot easier business to get someone in Taiwan to build you a container of frames.

The one thing that people don't do is figure out how much they should charge for a frame given the cost of what goes into it. It costs $10k to get started, for example. And that is a very minimalist amount. The biggest mistake is to add up what it costs for the parts, what it costs for the paint, and add a couple hundred for labor. Which is what I see most beginners doing. What happens when the paint job has a problem? You have to be able to cover that somehow and you'll still be working for nothing sometimes. Wet paint is very expensive and the painter is not going to want to help you every time someone has a problem. You can look on this forum for examples where people expect a guy in his garage to act like walmart when something small goes wrong.

[mike_b]

I'm a hobbyist tig welder. I think that tig welding is an art and it may take you some time learning to get your welds to look like 'stacks of dimes'. Ti and the thin metal used in bike frames will make it tougher. If you want to get started with this soon, brazing might be your best bet. Or you hire a skilled tig welder.

[Julien]

Im not a frame builder but an artisan in yet another niche market (high end guitars) with somewhat lots of commonalities with frame building. I see lots of people in my field trying to give a professional career a go with no or very little experience, sometimes little training, and it’s from my point of view a bad idea for the person, for their finances, for the customers and the community as a whole.
If you’re absolutely passionate about it and see yourself doing it full time in ten years from now, I would recommend going to vocational school, finding mentors and build a network, starting an apprenticeship and ideally working as an employee for a few years (or making it a side thing until it grows solid enough) before even thinking of setting up shop.
It’s definitely a long road and quite a bumpy one; any craft requires a stupid amount of hours in before anything good comes out, but it can also hopefully become extremely rewarding and satisfying.

[David Kirk]

A question and a few pieces of unsolicited advice -


- do you want to turn a profit?

- will you need to rent space for this venture?

- can you tell yourself or others why they should buy a frame from you?



advice -

- Do not sell your 3rd frame or even your 30th. They will not be good. This says nothing whatsoever about you....it speaks to skills that need to be learned and that takes time and many more bikes than would be expected to gain basic competence. It takes real repetition to learn the skills needed to make a frame that is safe to use. How many frames is that? I have no idea. It's way more than a handful. The very best guys who have crossover fabrication skills from other areas might be able to make a good/safe frame after 25ish frames....maybe. Most people will need to double that at a minimum. I've taught many people to build and even the best don't hit it out of the park the first time. Not a single one.

- do not under any circumstance even think about selling a single frame to anyone unless you have liability insurance. Most people have a self centered view on this and say they have nothing to lose. While I understand that logic I would push back strongly and say it ain't about you....it's about the person who bought a bike from you and had it fail and was injured. You owe it to them. It's part of the service/product. Every builder owes it to their customers to insure that if they eff up that the bills will be taken care of....full stop. If you fly without it is says you either don't understand or don't care and neither are acceptable. I pay my premium every year and I smile when I write that check.

- the thing most people focus on when thinking of framebuilding is the torch time...the welding or brazing. I get it...it's internet glamorous in an odd way. That said it's far from the most important part of the gig. I braze about 2 hours a week at best and I work full time. All of the rest of the stuff is every bit as important and it takes MUCH more time and no less skill than playing with fire. Can you fit someone to a bike? Can you pick the proper tubing? Can you deal with suppliers and shipping and buying cardboard boxes and coils of silver rod? Do you even know where to start that process? If not you need to get out in front of that.



If my tone is negative I apologize....it's just that for the past 30 years I've watched countless well intentioned and energetic people decide to be a framebuilder only to invest a ton of money on tools, take some deposits, ship a few bikes, have a frame or two fail or come out wonky and then walk away taking other's deposits with them. Everyone says this won't happen to them but it happens to all too many so plenty of people before you have gotten it wrong. And this in turn gives a black eye to the entire niche.

I hope this is taken in the spirit it was intended. Best of luck.


dave


P.S. - I felt that this needed to be added here.....for years I've been hearing prospective builders say that Builder X has a 7 year wait so that must mean that there is a demand for handbuilt frames and they will start a business to meet that demand. It makes sense until you think about it. What there is is a demand for frames made by Builder X and not just in general. The customers want a X frame and not just any frame and they are willing to wait for it....and having yet another option for a bike with a shorter lead time will not budge those buyers from Brand X. They already had that as there is no shortage of builders without a long wait.

In the end I feel that the reason to throw one's hat into the ring is because you have something special to offer. Unless you have something unique it's a race to the bottom.

[fijichf]

I’d partner at some level with an established builder if they allow you to do so, to see if there was a “fit” for you in the industry in general. This allows you to keep your day job, invest in a business that you’re interested in and advanced your building and technical skills. Lots of talented and energetic people have passed through the frame building ranks and most tapped out for one reason or another. What’s the theory about needing 10,000 hours under your belt to be considered proficient at something? Being proficient doesn’t necessarily translate as being excellent at your craft, either.

Pour through Richard Sachs’ website if the successful integration of art, science, craft, persistence and having high expectations of oneself, is what your strive for. No dog in the hunt for me...that’s just who I believe embodies what bicycle frame building is about. Good luck with your dreams.

[prototoast]

I am a hobby frame builder who has no realistic dreams of making a business out of it. Just like in most fields, it can be very hard to attract customers without experience, but it's also hard to get experience without customers, unless you can get hired to work for an existing operation, of which there are not many in the US.

As a first order of business, sit down and build a frame from design to completion, timing yourself the whole way. Then figure out how much you would have to charge. And that's only a small part of the business, that doesn't take into account sales and marketing, customer support.

And it has to be flawless. I know from making my own frames, sometimes I make little mistakes. For example, on one frame I put a cable stop on backwards. Silly little mistake, easy to fix, but if I was selling that to a customer, that's game over. Maybe it took 20 minutes to actually fix the cable stop, but what if I had to pay for shipping back from the customer, then spend 20 minutes fixing it, then pay to ship it to a painter, pay the painter, and then pay to have it shipped back to the customer. That 20 minute fix just turned into $500 in paint and shipping.

But perhaps the biggest challenge is capital. A lot of frame builders who struggle think they can bootstrap their way to success. If you look up any guide books on starting a business, even something that is almost entirely labor, like a consulting business, they still recommend having capital. If you want it to be a full-time job, that means you need to treat it like a full-time job. And you need enough money to start so that you can be building frames full time, paying yourself, and doing all that without any customers at first.

If I were trying to give it a go, here's what I do:
-buy enough tubing and materials to make 50 frames up front, no customers
-just start building full time
-if the frames come out good, find a local race team to sponsor and give them free frames
-or if racing isn't your thing, find some way to get your frames out there into the community without charging people for them
-once you feel comfortable building lots of frames, and you have people out there riding your frames and giving you feedback, think more about customer acquisition


And my final, most important piece of advice: if you want to get people to buy your frames, you have to make it clear how they can buy your frames. You can sell direct on your website, you can partner with local bike shops, whatever, but a customer has to know how they can buy your frame. I've been to NAHBS with a lot of cash in my pocket walking around booths and shockingly few builders will say anything about price, how to order, what they could offer me. I've read interviews of frame builders who say they're struggling to find customers, and then I go to their website and there's nothing about price, how to order, etc to be found there. Don't expect customers to do the heavy lifting for you. Maybe that works if you are Richard Sachs,* but it's not going to work for a startup builder.

*I don't mean to criticize Mr Sachs, who has done an outstanding job of marketing his frames over the years. Just to make clear that no one's going to get into a queue that's longer than the builder has been in existence, and 40 years of building brand equity can't be established overnight.

[e-RICHIE]

I agree with Dave Kirk above. Further, these are different times. Most fine frames are manufactured, not made. They come from factories and, over time, bigger companies with deeper pockets and smarter people have figured out how to meld technology, material, production, and even branding, so that their wares, however lacking in the human touch they may seem to carry, are what the market views as haute frame building (or bicycles.) The frames-made-by-humans who have a foot in past eras or maybe at least a few toes - these types are the outliers. I keep my pulse on the trade simply because it is my trade, and because I sell components to many independent makers, and I'll go on record as saying few are making a living (and that itself is a separate topic) and many aren't working full time as efficient 8 hour a day operators. There are some nice looking frames out there in the Y2K era. But not that many that suggests the niche survived once industry began down a finer and more efficient job at what my predecessors once did. There was a time when it was unfathomable for a factory to make a frame worthy of racing, of high regard, or even one with style. That ship (time) has sailed.

[mcteague]

My first thought was “get lots of liability insurance” but DK beat me to it.

Tim