Wiggins on the Concept2 erg

[happycampyer]

Originally Posted by Louis

I don't have any specific numbers (and I doubt C2 would release them) but they're supposedly very consistent. For example, they're self-calibrating in a manner that a power meter on a bike can't achieve: They can figure out what damping of the wheel is by measuring how they spin down (something super-easy to do very accurately) which then allows them to calculate how much work you're doing, and based on that how "fast" you're going and the equivalent otw (on the water) speed.

This is what I was referring to by the drag factor. I found this on C2's website:

"Between each stroke, the PM measures how much your flywheel is slowing down to determine how sleek or slow your “boat” is. This rate of deceleration is called the drag factor. On your next stroke, the PM uses the drag factor to determine from the speed of the flywheel how much work you are doing. In this way, your true effort is calculated regardless of damper setting. This self-calibration is what allows us to compare scores from different indoor rowers, making things like indoor racing and the online world rankings possible.

"Different indoor rowers can have different drag factor ranges. A damper setting of 3 on your home machine may feel like 4 on the machine at the gym. Differences in air temperature, elevation—even how much lint is caught in the flywheel housing—can all affect the drag factor from machine to machine. When using different machines, you may need to adjust the damper setting to achieve the drag factor and feel you prefer."

http://www.concept2.com/service/moni...ng-drag-factor

[Louis]

Yup - without having read that recently, that's what I was trying to describe.

A comment for all the newbie ergers out there: Don't just set the damper lever at 10 and row as hard as you can. That will be too hard and bad in a number of ways. Instead, put the lever around, 5 then in the "More Options" menu (or something like that) pick "Display Drag factor." Row a few strokes and the display will show the machine's current DF. Most folks use a DF in the 110-140 range. Unless you're a monster out to prove something, anything higher is unnecessary. Play around with it a bit and see what you like best. There is no one magic setting, and higher isn't necessarily better.

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by Louis

Most folks use a DF in the 110-140 range. Unless you're a monster out to prove something, anything higher is unnecessary. Play around with it a bit and see what you like best. There is no one magic setting, and higher isn't necessarily better.

One program that I rowed for, we had to all set the same drag factor for our tests, somewhere around 114-116.

Anecdotally, a damper setting around 3 is the load you would expect to feel in a reasonably well trained 8. That's where I would set mine for essentially all of my sessions unless told otherwise.

The higher damper settings are useful for specific workouts - high load low rating for muscle recruitment and resistance training, but overuse injuries, particularly in the low back are common with those types of workouts. You need good base strength and form to avoid injury. Early winter training for us included frequent sessions of damper 10, 16-18spm, 100% effort every stroke for 60min. Brutal workouts.

[thegunner]

Originally Posted by batman1425

The higher damper settings are useful for specific workouts - high load low rating for muscle recruitment and resistance training, but overuse injuries, particularly in the low back are common with those types of workouts.

my school's freshman boat ended up with herniated discs in... i want to say 1/3 of all rowers (myself inclusive). although it's not unique to high damper settings, since most of what i was doing was longer 15-20k pieces at a 95 damper.

60 mins @16 SPM with 100% load sounds... miserable.

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by LegendRider

I know this way too broad of a question, but for those who did or can row below 6:30 on the erg, how good of a cyclist are you? Seems like that's easily Cat 2 equivalent talent.

Different muscle recruitment paradigms and distribution of power application. Rowing is truly a full body muscle recruitment. Cycling doesn't take use of the back, shoulders, and arms the way rowing does so generating 500 watts on an erg is not the same as generating 500 watts on the bike.

I took time off between rowing and cycling so I'll never really know what my rowing form would have equated to on the bike. However, I can say that when I was at my fittest on the bike, I was a mid to upper third Cat 3 and still no where near as fit as I was when I was rowing. As a lightweight, I was in the mid 620's 2k and mid 20:XX 6k. If I had the time to train like I was when I was rowing, I don't think it is unreasonable to think I could have been a reasonably strong cat 2.

[thegunner]

Originally Posted by batman1425

Different muscle recruitment paradigms and distribution of power application. Rowing is truly a full body muscle recruitment. Cycling doesn't take use of the back, shoulders, and arms the way rowing does so generating 500 watts on an erg is not the same as generating 500 watts on the bike.

I took time off between rowing and cycling so I'll never really know what my rowing form would have equated to on the bike. However, I can say that when I was at my fittest on the bike, I was a mid to upper third Cat 3 and still no where near as fit as I was when I was rowing. As a lightweight, I was in the mid 620's 2k and mid 20:XX 6k. If I had the time to train like I was when I was rowing, I don't think it is unreasonable to think I could have been a reasonably strong cat 2.

so by comparison, i was nowhere near 6:20, i was a 6:50 guy at best @135-140. on a hilly TT course, i can put in a time that would be upper cat-3's, but racing wise, i'm a good cat-4. the fitness carries over, but the strategy really doesn't (just like how i question how good an oarsman wiggins is even if he could put in a 6:00 2k)

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by thegunner

my school's freshman boat ended up with herniated discs in... i want to say 1/3 of all rowers (myself inclusive). although it's not unique to high damper settings, since most of what i was doing was longer 15-20k pieces at a 95 damper.

60 mins @16 SPM with 100% load sounds... miserable.

Most of the reason I don't erg much anymore is that I have legitimate PTSD from that thing. The hour of low rate power was miserable but far from the worst thing we did. The worst was this 90min death spiral. It was structured into 2 blocks with increasing rating and watts but the "rest" sections were essentially only about 5sec/500 above your PR6k at an 18, and the ON's increasing amounts below starting from just at 6K at a 22, then increasing to 6kPR -10sec at a 34 throughout the block. If you were able to hit all your targets, you would end up averaging about 1 to 2sec/500 above 6K pace for 90 min. It was the worst thing I've ever done in an athletic pursuit. It was the only workout we did that we were given a full 48hrs off afterwards to recover.

[crankles]

Originally Posted by batman1425

Most of the reason I don't erg much anymore is that I have legitimate PTSD from that thing.

I'm certain this will be by far the funniest thing I'll have read all day.

I'm pretty sure ergs are banned in the Geneva Conventions.

[happycampyer]

Originally Posted by crankles

I'm certain this will be by far the funniest thing I'll have read all day.

I'm pretty sure ergs are banned in the Geneva Conventions.

Have you ever rowed on a Gamut erg? I’ll never be able to get the sound out of my head: zzzzziiiiiiiiiiiiiiig, tick-a tick-a tick-a tick-a, zzzzziiiiiiiiiiiiiiig, tick-a tick-a tick-a tick-a, zzzzziiiiiiiiiiiiiiig, tick-a tick-a tick-a tick-a...

[crankles]

Originally Posted by happycampyer

Have you ever rowed on a Gamut erg? I’ll never be able to get the sound out of my head: zzzzziiiiiiiiiiiiiiig, tick-a tick-a tick-a tick-a, zzzzziiiiiiiiiiiiiiig, tick-a tick-a tick-a tick-a, zzzzziiiiiiiiiiiiiiig, tick-a tick-a tick-a tick-a...

I did...hated it. never felt normal....but this was one of the 1st gens...never tried the one with the concept2 flywheel.

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by crankles

I did...hated it. never felt normal....but this was one of the 1st gens...never tried the one with the concept2 flywheel.

First gen is what we had as well for technique work. The one with the little weights you would put on the balance pan to change resistance and a giant timer that looked like it came from a darkroom. Closest thing to a medieval torture device I've used while training.

[chromopromo]

Originally Posted by batman1425

First gen is what we had as well for technique work. The one with the little weights you would put on the balance pan to change resistance and a giant timer that looked like it came from a darkroom. Closest thing to a medieval torture device I've used while training.

Thanks for confirming. I have tried to explain to my daughter, who rowed in HS, the particular misery of the gamut ergs we used in my freshman year of college. It was only a painful memory but I just googled and got some good video to show her.

That being said, my daughters HS rowing program today was as intense as my Ivy freshman lightweight program in the 80s. I can't image that Wiggins would be able to optimize his body or learn the necessary technique to get close to Olympic caliber.

[happycampyer]

Originally Posted by chromopromo

Thanks for confirming. I have tried to explain to my daughter, who rowed in HS, the particular misery of the gamut ergs we used in my freshman year of college. It was only a painful memory but I just googled and got some good video to show her.

That being said, my daughters HS rowing program today was as intense as my Ivy freshman lightweight program in the 80s. I can't image that Wiggins would be able to optimize his body or learn the necessary technique to get close to Olympic caliber.

Yes, the original Gamut erg is the one I was referring to, too. You put weight in a basket, which put drag on a brake against a giant cast iron flywheel. I think it was the enormous spring attached to the cable that was partly responsible for the terrifying sound the thing would make. I found a funny description of it online:

Which brings us to the Gamut erg - the one winter training apparatus that I am not sad to see fade from popularity. We had a nickname for it - the vomit-o-meter.

The Gamut ergometer was a primordial objet d'art, something that might eventually find its way onto the set of a steam punk film. It looked like a big metal monster that had been created one weekend by an engineer in his garage, just for kicks, using welding tools and various bits and pieces that just happened to be lying about, like a cheap bicycle tachometer and an oversized clock repurposed from a photographer's developing room.
...
Oarsman dreaded their encounters with the Gamut, perhaps more than they do the CII today, because the machine had an indomitable presence. It was like a mechanical bull that you agreed to challenge, but soon regretted the decision. With the first few pulls of the oar handle, the entire device began to creak like a metal beast that did not want to be awakened. And once it started, you could not get off until you were queasy, weak-kneed, and defeated.

http://www.row2k.com/features/2075/C...--Big-Bad-Erg/




The newer version attached to a C2 flywheel doesn't look to be as daunting.