Interesting podcast with Lance Armstrong

[makoti]

Originally Posted by El Chaba

Which is just another form of the two wrongs make a right defense….

"Whataboutism" hard at work

[LegendRider]

The discussion around his pre-Tour fitness checks was fascinating. In short, while fully juiced and ready for the Tour, he could do 500 watts (~7 watts/kg) for 30 minutes on the Madone. That's really hard to fathom. He attributes EPO to a 10% gain and said without it he'd do 450 watts otherwise.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by Ewiser

There was a wide use of EPO in that time period of cycling. Just common cycling knowledge. I have been following pro cycling for 50 years now. I didn’t start following cycling with Lance. People are already wondering about Tadej Pogačar.

Of course. No disagreement here, but the narrative that the Armstrong camp has always used is reframing "widespread" - meaning a significant %, but not everyone - to "absolutely everyone" with the implication that is 100%.

Of course, the easy bait, is to take it as 100% and thus absolve Lance (see, you've just been played), where they can then also hide behind the 'easy out' concept of "everyone who had a chance to win"... or "my key competitors" which is both flawed logic because it would be extremely hard to be competitive without joining in and doping (thus ignoring potential), AND that's subject to Lance et al's idea of who was a legit competitor (where he can choose only the other riders who take it "seriously" - meaning doping - and thus "everyone").

In all cases, it's untrue. Not everyone doped in the EPO era, not even close. Not everyone of the key competitors or highly talented individuals doped. You only have to talk to pros during that era who raced who know.

So, "Everyone" is a manipulation, another PR story spun by Lance. Lance didn't dope because a large % of people were doping... he doped because he wanted to ensure he won by any means possible including fullscale cheating. that's what's important. He should never be absolved by "some (or in Lance's eyes 'all') of my key competitors were doing it". Because then the apologists echo the mantra "Everyone, Everyone, Everyone, Everyone"

[Clean39T]

Who cares about PEDs. He said Dura Ace is better than Super Record. The man is dead to me.

[reuben]

Originally Posted by clean39t

who cares about peds. He said dura ace is better than super record. The man is dead to me.

potd

[sw3759]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Who cares about PEDs. He said Dura Ace is better than Super Record. The man is dead to me.

word....
fwiw i wonder if he is ever ridden SR.and doesn't he have a big stake in SRAM?
anyone ever seen a photo of him ever using campy.i sure haven't

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by sw3759

word....
fwiw i wonder if he is ever ridden SR.and doesn't he have a big stake in SRAM?
anyone ever seen a photo of him ever using campy.i sure haven't

I’m not sure he ever lined up for a competitive event with them due to his recovery time from his illness, but he was under contract with Cofidis for a year back then; 1997 or 1998. Don’t remember which. They rode Campagnolo and there are images of him riding Campagnolo of that era, but I’m not sure they were in competition.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

Of course. No disagreement here, but the narrative that the Armstrong camp has always used is reframing "widespread" - meaning a significant %, but not everyone - to "absolutely everyone" with the implication that is 100%.

Of course, the easy bait, is to take it as 100% and thus absolve Lance (see, you've just been played), where they can then also hide behind the 'easy out' concept of "everyone who had a chance to win"... or "my key competitors" which is both flawed logic because it would be extremely hard to be competitive without joining in and doping (thus ignoring potential), AND that's subject to Lance et al's idea of who was a legit competitor (where he can choose only the other riders who take it "seriously" - meaning doping - and thus "everyone").

In all cases, it's untrue. Not everyone doped in the EPO era, not even close. Not everyone of the key competitors or highly talented individuals doped. You only have to talk to pros during that era who raced who know.

So, "Everyone" is a manipulation, another PR story spun by Lance. Lance didn't dope because a large % of people were doping... he doped because he wanted to ensure he won by any means possible including fullscale cheating. that's what's important. He should never be absolved by "some (or in Lance's eyes 'all') of my key competitors were doing it". Because then the apologists echo the mantra "Everyone, Everyone, Everyone, Everyone"

LOL you take this **** really personally don't you?

Bike racing for dollars is so weird.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by charliedid

LOL you take this **** really personally don't you?

Bike racing for dollars is so weird.

It's just an opinion, or are we not allowed to share those?. But wait, it is my personal opinion... so you must have got me!

[sw3759]

Originally Posted by saab2000

I’m not sure he ever lined up for a competitive event with them due to his recovery time from his illness, but he was under contract with Cofidis for a year back then; 1997 or 1998. Don’t remember which. They rode Campagnolo and there are images of him riding Campagnolo of that era, but I’m not sure they were in competition.

yep your correct totally forgot about cofidis in 1997 so i'm sure he has some miles on campy record.of course in 1998 he was back on shimano with postal

[thirdgenbird]

Originally Posted by sw3759

yep your correct totally forgot about cofidis in 1997 so i'm sure he has some miles on campy record 10.of course in 1998 he was back on shimano with postal

It would have been 9 speed. Probably the original variant that was effectively 8 speed record (pointy hoods) with a different index gear.

I’m pretty sure 1998 was the first year for the rounded levers. 10spd came out in 2001.

[the bottle ride]

Thank you for sharing- great podcast.
Although I had heard all of these stories before, I really enjoyed it coming from his mouth.

And the question/point of view of “everyone did it” is absolutely true. Cheating has been part of the European narrative of the sport since the start.

[jimoots]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Who cares about PEDs. He said Dura Ace is better than Super Record. The man is dead to me.

This is far more in the spirit of the thread and PL

Lance + peds + punishment, done to death. You guys should start a forum about it if you want to beat a dead horse, haha

And thanks for the pod recommendation. Will check it out.

[9tubes]

Originally Posted by LegendRider

The discussion around his pre-Tour fitness checks was fascinating. In short, while fully juiced and ready for the Tour, he could do 500 watts (~7 watts/kg) for 30 minutes on the Madone. That's really hard to fathom. He attributes EPO to a 10% gain and said without it he'd do 450 watts otherwise.

Ha! I doubt that his pre-doping teammates would agree with the 450 figure. His pre-doping performance wasn't that impressive according to his Motorola teammates. He was strong but not top-ten-in-the-Tour strong. This is supported by his early results as a pro. The top-ten-in-the-Tour riders are a breed apart, even in the early years.

This is just Lance pushing the PR theme of "I was a superstar anyway."

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by 9tubes

Ha! I doubt that his pre-doping teammates would agree with the 450 figure. His pre-doping performance wasn't that impressive according to his Motorola teammates. He was strong but not top-ten-in-the-Tour strong. This is supported by his early results as a pro. The top-ten-in-the-Tour riders are a breed apart, even in the early years.

This is just Lance pushing the PR theme of "I was a superstar anyway."

Having been an observer and fan of the sport since long before he became a part of it, and having seen his rise, his success wasn’t a fluke. I think he would have been a very handy one-day racer and stage winner in all kinds of races. He had early success in one day races because he wasn’t lacking in talent. The ‘program’ was what elevated him to 3-week consistency and power levels.