Espresso machines

[flydhest]

Any reason (besides cost) not to get a La Marzocco Mini?

[DerekB]

Only if you would rather get a La Marzocco GS/3!!!
LM makes great espresso machines which can make great espresso.
What grinder will you use? The

[SoCalSteve]

It's all about the grinder...

[kgreene10]

I thought it was all about the grinder, but something is funny in my kitchen.

I upgraded from a bottom-of-the-barrel Breville burr grinder to a Baratza Vario about six weeks ago and my espresso has become very uneven but undrinkable most of the time.

I've tried a variety of excellent (and expensive) beans from Coava, Four Barrel, and Tweed, getting the best results with the latter. Still, however, results are highly uneven. I've got a gram scale and a good Rattleware tamper. I time the shots. The espresso machine is the same crappy Saeco as ever, but the shots were better with the supposedly lousy grinder that I've since given away.

I'm sure I'm hijacking the thread -- sorry about that -- but any thoughts would be appreciated.

[miguel]

According to my experience
You will pay more money and waste more coffee by buying a nice machine and nice grinder than if you went down to the shop and paid $2 every time. On top of that, if your shop is good, they will have their pulls dialed before you enter and you won't have to worry about relative humidity, temperature of the machine/water, and provenance of the beans - that is already taken care of. Stop worrying about status and drink good coffee. Pourover/French press is for the home.

[ripvanrando]

My experience is the opposite. The closest decent coffee shop is 7 miles away and not only is it closed right now but their pulls are $3 and they are not as good as mine. The closest espresso that is better than mine is more like 15 miles away. What is my time worth to drive down there? Cost to operate my vehicle? Convenience of having a good shot when I want it?

I am not sure how you know or why you think the OP is worrying about status.

Originally Posted by miguel

According to my experience
You will pay more money and waste more coffee by buying a nice machine and nice grinder than if you went down to the shop and paid $2 every time. On top of that, if your shop is good, they will have their pulls dialed before you enter and you won't have to worry about relative humidity, temperature of the machine/water, and provenance of the beans - that is already taken care of. Stop worrying about status and drink good coffee. Pourover/French press is for the home.

[Neil]

^I agree, I like turning the machine on then getting the bike ready, nice espresso made in my kitchen and then out on the road.

[stackie]

Originally Posted by miguel

According to my experience
You will pay more money and waste more coffee by buying a nice machine and nice grinder than if you went down to the shop and paid $2 every time. On top of that, if your shop is good, they will have their pulls dialed before you enter and you won't have to worry about relative humidity, temperature of the machine/water, and provenance of the beans - that is already taken care of. Stop worrying about status and drink good coffee. Pourover/French press is for the home.

Miguel. You live in Portland. It would almost be accurate to use the old cliche about not being able to throw a stone and not hit a good coffee shop. From my friends who lived in DC, that is not the case there.

$2 for an espresso? Around here, it is $2.50 to 2.75 and throw in a tip. You've just dropped $3. 3 x 365 = over $1000 a year, not including time and travel. Now what if you want a second spro?

I'm a coffee fiend. Between my wife and daughter, we are at 5 espresso drinks a morning before I leave for work at 0700. Weekends...more.

So, ya, for me a super nice quality machine and grinder is a huge money saver and makes great coffee possible for me at my convenience.

Sure, can espresso be frustrating? Absolutely. It is both and art and science. You need to figure out how to be predictable in your technique so that you can isolate individual variables. This allows you to locate a change or problem in your technique quickly. It is absolutely impossible without a precise machine and grinder.

Does everyone need a LM Linea? No. The baseline machine is a PID Silvia if you are only doing espresso. If you want to make the jump to milk drinks, then you need to jump to a heat exchanger or double boiler. But, with the number of nice PID double boilers on the market, it's hard to recommend the heat exchanger. Easy to get a nice PID double boiler for 2-2500.

Baseline grinder is Mazzer Mini. Maybe a Baratza Vario. Go up from there.

Jon

[miguel]

Originally Posted by stackie

Miguel. You live in Portland. It would almost be accurate to use the old cliche about not being able to throw a stone and not hit a good coffee shop.

its true
i have favorite espressos and roasters in all the neighborhoods. on top of that i live close in/center eastside.

the thing is, a good rig (machine/grinder/beans/etc) will be $2000 - at $3/shot that is 666/shots :slayer: - enough for 1/day for a year and a half. and you dont have to clean it up.

i will not drive a car for the sole purpose to get a coffee/espresso, ever - that is what a bike is for. not only do you get the little bit of exercise but you get the reward and a little more exercise on the way back.

its the same reason one should buy a difficult-to-make dish at a restaurant (fava beans, beef wellington, etc) the time an effort to make it at home for a mediocre result. i stand by my pourover/french press at home comment.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by miguel

its the same reason one should buy a difficult-to-make dish at a restaurant (fava beans, beef wellington, etc) the time an effort to make it at home for a mediocre result.

this logic may hold true for you personally, along with your view on espresso; but consider for a moment that your view on these subjects is quite narrow. There is almost always someone else who can do things better than you, but sometimes the satisfaction of doing something yourself is simply worth the effort. Just because it isnt worth it to YOU to invest the time, money and effort into pulling the perfect shot at home, or cooking an exquisite meal, doesnt mean that is true for everyone.

My wife makes a beef wellington, for example that will rival any restaurant.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by miguel

its true
i have favorite espressos and roasters in all the neighborhoods. on top of that i live close in/center eastside.

the thing is, a good rig (machine/grinder/beans/etc) will be $2000 - at $3/shot that is 666/shots :slayer: - enough for 1/day for a year and a half. and you dont have to clean it up.

i will not drive a car for the sole purpose to get a coffee/espresso, ever - that is what a bike is for. not only do you get the little bit of exercise but you get the reward and a little more exercise on the way back.

its the same reason one should buy a difficult-to-make dish at a restaurant (fava beans, beef wellington, etc) the time an effort to make it at home for a mediocre result. i stand by my pourover/french press at home comment.

Once you learn it, espresso isn't near as hard as a gourmet meal. I can't cook anything (maybe beyond basic eggs) as well as a good chef. I can't make my latte LOOK as good as a great barista, but I can make it taste as good and usually better. I pull consistently better shots than any shop I've found between me and Philly and that's about 45 minutes to an hour. And, honestly, I've had double shots in shops all over the US and Europe and I've only come across one, ONE barista that pulls consistently great shots - consistently as good as the very best shots I ever pull. My shots on a good day are better than I can count on finding anywhere within two hours of where I live and on a typical day they're about the same level as the shots I've had in most good shops. That's not even close to true with anything I'd try cooking.

-Ray

[miguel]

full disclosure: i make beef wellington and fava beans, i worked at a classy restaurant for a few years. i was also stumptown trained when they were still doing that, i can make the milk do cool things in the crema.

absolutely other people do things better than me

youre not going to convince me that an espresso machine should be in the home

[miguel]

····, while we're at it, why not get a lever machine? i learned this one a few years ago

[crankles]

Originally Posted by miguel

youre not going to convince me that an espresso machine should be in the home

...and you couldn't convince me otherwise...especially for folks who love coffee. I slung for a while over 30 yrs ago. In the time since I've paid for truly great shots and truly abysmal ones. I really appreciate a barista who's paying attention, but sadly even in coffee meccas like portland and the bay area, the skill varies widely.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by miguel

youre not going to convince me that an espresso machine should be in the home

I'm not gonna convince you an espresso machine needs to be in YOUR home and it doesn't matter whether you believe one needs to be in MY home, so all is good.

Seth, I knew you didn't need the whole espresso machine vs nepresso vs no machine at home debate - you were a guiding voice for me when I first got into this stuff more than 10 years ago now. So I knew you had an ECM and were plenty into it. I can't speak to WHICH double boiler machine to get - I think once you've got that level of temperature control they're all gonna pull equally good shots, so it's down to fit and finish and features once you get beyond an Expobar Brewtus. Once you're at this level of machine the grinder is more critical anyway and you've got a great one already...

But I absolutely endorse the move to a double boiler. You can do just as well with an HX machine, but it's just easier to get and stay dialed with a double since the brew temp never has to move and there's no flushing or timing to worry about. Opinions vary, but that's mine FWIW. I have a Brewtus IV, plumbed in with a rotary pump. We re-did our kitchen a couple years ago and had a space carved out for espresso (shorter cabinet on that end of that counter so plenty of headroom for the machine and grinder) and I love the setup. I take up more counter space for espresso in the AM and then slide the grinder, tamp area, and knock-box back up against the machine to free up space for cooking later in the day. There are features I like in some more expensive machines, but when it came time to buy, I couldn't rationalize spending an additional $500-3000 for stuff that wasn't gonna add up to better shots. But if I'd just come into a bit of a windfall as it sounds like your new job will provide (congratulations BTW!), I'm sure I would have.

So whatever you end up getting, enjoy!

-Ray