Carbon bike

[zennmotion]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

If I were looking at carbon, I'd think very hard about what my expectations were. For one, I get the feeling that carbon depreciates like a rock -- especially the big brand companies. I'm not sure that I'd want to spend top dollar on it.

Heh. True. I got the Cyfac frameset in here for a fraction of the original cost as it was already somewhat "dated" at 5 yrs old. I think buying the newest latest greatest is like buying an expensive laptop.

[mtechnica]

I call BS that there is no difference between other materials and carbon. Carbon rides better than any steel or aluminum bike, is stiffer than any steel bike, and is lighter than any metal bike. (all else being equal). Owned carbon: Calfee, Look, Bianchi. There is a reason all of the pros ride carbon bikes.

I've probably said all this before but the carbon Vs. debate is starting to look like the climate change "debate" which is basically ridiculous. Carbon is lighter and stiffer and rides better. Believe it, or delude yourself. I'm sorry. it's true that some steel frames come close, but overall, no.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by mtechnica

I call BS that there is no difference between other materials and carbon. Carbon rides better than any steel or aluminum bike, is stiffer than any steel bike, and is lighter than any metal bike. (all else being equal). Owned carbon: Calfee, Look, Bianchi. There is a reason all of the pros ride carbon bikes.

I've probably said all this before but the carbon Vs. debate is starting to look like the climate change "debate" which is basically ridiculous. Carbon is lighter and stiffer and rides better. Believe it, or delude yourself. I'm sorry. it's true that some steel frames come close, but overall, no.

unlike the climate debate, this is up to opinion. Carbon is lighter no doubt but some people don't care about that and prefer the ride of steel or aluminum.

The reason pros ride carbon bikes is because they are paid to do so, if somehow steel made a revival because it was cheaper to manufacture, they would be ridding steel

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

The reason pros ride carbon bikes is because they are paid to do so, if somehow steel made a revival because it was cheaper to manufacture, they would be ridding steel

I very much doubt this. Carbon bikes are no longer 'experimental' or prototypes. They are ubiquitous and not only because they are cheap to manufacture.

To the OP: Go to a local Cannondale or Specialized or Trek dealership and ask for a test ride on a 105-equipped (or thereabouts) carbon bike and report back. Have the salesperson spend the time to get a close position to your own and bring your own pedals if the bike in question doesn't use your kind. Go for a 10-mile ride, not some parking lot 'test'.

I'm quite sure you'll be pleasantly surprised.

As to other comments - bikes are terrible investments. Upon this most can agree. Some hold value better than others but mostly we need to buy them because we enjoy them. Any idea of selling, even after just one year, and recouping our money is folly. They plummet in value and the higher the MSRP, the harder they fall. High end ones are more valuable often for their components than the frames. They are nothing more than a commodity and the market is flooded with used carbon bikes.

[mcteague]

After 10 years on a Seven Axiom I too lusted after carbon. Lots of research led me to the Parlee Z5. Geometry and size were nearly the same as my Seven. I was sure I was going to get one after reading all the reviews. Trouble is, I did not like the ride. It was not bad, just kind of dead. There was no feedback from the road. I did like the way the stiffness helped when climbing though.

I ended up back with Seven and got the mixed Ti/carbon 622 SLX. I seems to have the best of both worlds, stiff & light but also transmits a nice amount of road feel. Plus, the filament wound carbon tubes are a bit more resistant to cracking upon impact as compared to those molded in forms IMO. Still, I really do like the look of the new styles with hidden cables, so clean. But, as I do my own wrenching, I'll stick to external cables for the time being.

Tim

[Clean39T]

Alright, here's my hot take...

If you are a discerning rider, pay attention to details, and already have top-end titanium and steel, there's no reason to muck about with anything other than hand-built carbon. Lower end carbon is just badly clumped together glue and rides like crap. It's the equivalent of getting a Surly to try out steel. In order to get good ride quality out of carbon, it has to be top-shelf stuff. But then the conundrum - which top shelf? What's the real good stuff, vs. the marketed crap dressed up to look nice?

Some people do fine with made-in-asia carbon bikes, including peeps winning the TdF, but others will never be satisfied by them, including yours truly, because they simply do not have the same quality control, consistency, or testing that you'll get if purchasing from an actual in-house builder. I've done too much reading and research to ever trust my teeth/brain to one of them. And really, to ever trust a superlight used carbon frameset full stop. My OCD is too intense. It is what it is. I've gotten to the same place with carbon forks - unless I know how/where they were built, I have no interest in riding them, especially if used.

For me, the only carbon I'd trust in the second-hand market is older LOOK and any TIME because of their manufacturing standards, in-house building, and their robustness (absent a few dark years and odd design choices to avoid). Plus some models from DeRosa, Colnago, et. Al. from when they were 100% Made in Italy.

If buying new, my list would drop Look and any of the others who have outsourced, and expand to include Holland, Argonaut, Crumpton, and MUSA Parlee (incl. Hampsten variants) - with Holland being at the very top by a country-mile.

So, that's my take on carbon. If I wanted it badly enough, and had space, I'd be buying one of the Time Izons or Scylons that are on super-sale at Merlin right now in my size. Both are exceptionally nice bikes, Made in France, and designed with both safety and performance in mind.

But I've also come to the conclusion that there's simply no reason for me to ride carbon when nice steel exists and will on balance out-perform carbon according to my overall quality-of-riding rating system. And I'm talking 100% steel - frame and fork. There are benefits for racers chasing fractional gains, and there are benefits for manufacturers pumping out new models with glorious planned obsolescence, but for this committed and hard-riding enthusiast, there's nothing for me to gain from riding carbon anything.

So, who wants to talk disc brakes?

[ptourkin]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Alright, here's my hot take...

If you are a discerning rider, pay attention to details, and already have top-end titanium and steel, there's no reason to muck about with anything other than hand-built carbon. Lower end carbon is just badly clumped together glue and rides like crap. It's the equivalent of getting a Surly to try out steel. In order to get good ride quality out of carbon, it has to be top-shelf stuff. But then the conundrum - which top shelf? What's the real good stuff, vs. the marketed crap dressed up to look nice?

Some people do fine with made-in-asia carbon bikes, including peeps winning the TdF, but others will never be satisfied by them, including yours truly, because they simply do not have the same quality control, consistency, or testing that you'll get if purchasing from an actual in-house builder. I've done too much reading and research to ever trust my teeth/brain to one of them. And really, to ever trust a superlight used carbon frameset full stop. My OCD is too intense. It is what it is. I've gotten to the same place with carbon forks - unless I know how/where they were built, I have no interest in riding them, especially if used.

For me, the only carbon I'd trust in the second-hand market is older LOOK and any TIME because of their manufacturing standards, in-house building, and their robustness (absent a few dark years and odd design choices to avoid). Plus some models from DeRosa, Colnago, et. Al. from when they were 100% Made in Italy.

If buying new, my list would drop Look and any of the others who have outsourced, and expand to include Holland, Argonaut, Crumpton, and MUSA Parlee (incl. Hampsten variants) - with Holland being at the very top by a country-mile.

So, that's my take on carbon. If I wanted it badly enough, and had space, I'd be buying one of the Time Izons or Scylons that are on super-sale at Merlin right now in my size. Both are exceptionally nice bikes, Made in France, and designed with both safety and performance in mind.

But I've also come to the conclusion that there's simply no reason for me to ride carbon when nice steel exists and will on balance out-perform carbon according to my overall quality-of-riding rating system. And I'm talking 100% steel - frame and fork. There are benefits for racers chasing fractional gains, and there are benefits for manufacturers pumping out new models with glorious planned obsolescence, but for this committed and hard-riding enthusiast, there's nothing for me to gain from riding carbon anything.

So, who wants to talk disc brakes?

I am surrounded by Holland HCs. They are so good. The disc version clears 30s. What are you waiting for?

[zennmotion]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Alright, here's my hot take...

If you are a discerning rider, pay attention to details, and already have top-end titanium and steel, there's no reason to muck about with anything other than hand-built carbon. Lower end carbon is just badly clumped together glue and rides like crap. It's the equivalent of getting a Surly to try out steel. In order to get good ride quality out of carbon, it has to be top-shelf stuff. But then the conundrum - which top shelf? What's the real good stuff, vs. the marketed crap dressed up to look nice?

Some people do fine with made-in-asia carbon bikes, including peeps winning the TdF, but others will never be satisfied by them, including yours truly, because they simply do not have the same quality control, consistency, or testing that you'll get if purchasing from an actual in-house builder. I've done too much reading and research to ever trust my teeth/brain to one of them. And really, to ever trust a superlight used carbon frameset full stop. My OCD is too intense. It is what it is. I've gotten to the same place with carbon forks - unless I know how/where they were built, I have no interest in riding them, especially if used.

For me, the only carbon I'd trust in the second-hand market is older LOOK and any TIME because of their manufacturing standards, in-house building, and their robustness (absent a few dark years and odd design choices to avoid). Plus some models from DeRosa, Colnago, et. Al. from when they were 100% Made in Italy.

If buying new, my list would drop Look and any of the others who have outsourced, and expand to include Holland, Argonaut, Crumpton, and MUSA Parlee (incl. Hampsten variants) - with Holland being at the very top by a country-mile.

So, that's my take on carbon. If I wanted it badly enough, and had space, I'd be buying one of the Time Izons or Scylons that are on super-sale at Merlin right now in my size. Both are exceptionally nice bikes, Made in France, and designed with both safety and performance in mind.

But I've also come to the conclusion that there's simply no reason for me to ride carbon when nice steel exists and will on balance out-perform carbon according to my overall quality-of-riding rating system. And I'm talking 100% steel - frame and fork. There are benefits for racers chasing fractional gains, and there are benefits for manufacturers pumping out new models with glorious planned obsolescence, but for this committed and hard-riding enthusiast, there's nothing for me to gain from riding carbon anything.

So, who wants to talk disc brakes?

So, everybody has opinions, but these seem like some strong generalized assertions from someone who has limited experience with carbon bikes beyond google research. Among other things, the notion that "made in Asia" carbon= shoddy is old. But I guess the purpose of forums is confirmation and reassurance that we like what we like.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by zennmotion

So, everybody has opinions, but these seem like some strong generalized assertions from someone who has limited experience with carbon bikes beyond google research. Among other things, the notion that "made in Asia" carbon= shoddy is old. But I guess the purpose of forums is confirmation and reassurance that we like what we like.

and interesting since I remember hearing CLEAN say he loved his carbon trek.

also agree on the genralizations, if made in US, ITALY or ... insert western country here... good, china or taiwan bad. Its not as simple as that. THere is plenty of quality control in taiwan and they are making some of the best carbon stuff in the world. I know its cool to hate on china/taiwan but there is nice stuff there, the nice stuff is not cheap (sure compared to the Portland builder it might be).


I also disagree that carbon is for racers only.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

and interesting since I remember hearing CLEAN say he loved his carbon trek.

also agree on the genralizations, if made in US, ITALY or ... insert western country here... good, china or taiwan bad. Its not as simple as that. THere is plenty of quality control in taiwan and they are making some of the best carbon stuff in the world. I know its cool to hate on china/taiwan but there is nice stuff there, the nice stuff is not cheap (sure compared to the Portland builder it might be).

I also disagree that carbon is for racers only.

I've ridden a lot of carbon. Not as much as others, but enough to have formulated opinions of my own..

The Emonda SLR I had did ride nicely, but I've since ridden steel bikes that I vastly prefer - and even preferred the ride of the Look 585 Ultra to it. Plus, the Emonda SLR felt like a consumable, finite-life product - the BB won't last and it's always one small miscalculation away from being worthless or needing repair. I guess I've just lost interest in that.

And it's not that I don't think China or Taiwan could produce on par with TIME or some high-end US builders, I just don't think they are in general trying to do so (there may be some boutique production I'm not aware of...and I think the Parlee Z4/5 are probably another exception, especially the early model years). TIME is weaving their own carbon and engineering for longevity, not the lightest/stiffest/cheapest frame possible. Holland is laying everything up meticulously and committing to significant testing. I personally do not think that the top-end bikes being cranked out of the big factories are "worth" what they are charging - but that's me and my calculus, and is subjective, so ignore it if it isn't the same yardstick for you...

OP asked for opinions, and that's all any of us have.

[bob heinatz]

First I would like to thank everyone who has responded. I think there is no right answer concerning using a carbon frame because everyone has their own personal experience with carbon. My plan now is to find a nice used quality carbon bike in my size and ride it for a few months to see if I really like it or not. I will be selective on the brands I will be looking for so no Giant's ect. As I mentioned I have two great bikes now steel & ti so I can be patient on my hunt.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by bob heinatz

First I would like to thank everyone who has responded. I think there is no right answer concerning using a carbon frame because everyone has their own personal experience with carbon. My plan now is to find a nice used quality carbon bike in my size and ride it for a few months to see if I really like it or not. I will be selective on the brands I will be looking for so no Giant's ect. As I mentioned I have two great bikes now steel & ti so I can be patient on my hunt.

like people have mentioned here, look out for a look, they go for great prices.

also parlees are getting really cheap (downfall is tire clearance on some of the older models)

[zennmotion]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

like people have mentioned here, look out for a look, they go for great prices.

also parlees are getting really cheap (downfall is tire clearance on some of the older models)

They don't appear often, but there's a 56cm Cyfac in the classifieds right now (no relation to seller). If it fit, it's a very sweet bike. Small production, pedigree history, smart design, French snob appeal I love mine, and this one is nicer than mine.
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showt...ighlight=cyfac

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by zennmotion

They don't appear often, but there's a 56cm Cyfac in the classifieds right now (no relation to seller). If it fit, it's a very sweet bike. Small production, pedigree history, smart design, French snob appeal I love mine, and this one is nicer than mine.
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showt...ighlight=cyfac

I should add them to my list of ones to consider...saw a really nice one in Portland yesterday actually...ridden by a pretty tall dude too...

[zennmotion]

Originally Posted by bob heinatz

First I would like to thank everyone who has responded. I think there is no right answer concerning using a carbon frame because everyone has their own personal experience with carbon. My plan now is to find a nice used quality carbon bike in my size and ride it for a few months to see if I really like it or not. I will be selective on the brands I will be looking for so no Giant's ect. As I mentioned I have two great bikes now steel & ti so I can be patient on my hunt.

I would definitely test ride a Giant, and a Cdale, a Trek or two and a Spesh working with some good shops (visit at a slow time). I think you'd be surprised. I'm not a factory bike fanboy either. I'll stick my neck out and say that there's few if any "bad bikes" among the big makers, just maybe the wrong bike... for you. Or the right one. An open mind and patience for the process could make for a fun and enlightening experience. Then take the attributes and models you liked and go find a similar, older or just not "new" version of what you liked in the used market and save some $$$. And there is the possibility that you don't like anything at all. Then you save yourself some time and money, go for a joyride on one of your metal bikes and feel superior in your confirmed knowledge that steel is indeed real! Or Ti. With a carbon fork of course. Or not.