New Rene Herse Nivex Derailleur

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by Toddtwenty2

What frameset would you envision for a conversion?

Early 80's Trek or Raleigh, Motobecane, etc. Lugged steel, 1" quill headset. Light gauge tubing so that it planes. Something originally designed for 27" wheels but now running 700c (or even 650b) wheels.

I mean, assuming you don't already have a constructuer frameset conveniently hiding in your basement.

[hummus_aquinas]

Originally Posted by Toddtwenty2

What frameset would you envision for a conversion?

I think the 650b low trail conversions would make a good candidate for this. Since the builder is already brazing, crimping, re-raking, why not tack on this funky ass derailleur to the job?

https://www.renehersecycles.com/what...3-steves-frek/

[bicycletricycle]

my chapman rando bike might get one of these when it goes in for a refresh some day. Might change the brakes at the same time.

Originally Posted by Toddtwenty2

For sure. I could see where there would be a lower cost point in paying someone to remove a derailleur hanger, add a mounting tab for this derailleur, then repaint the bike. I have a nice, fillet brazed, late 90's Basso that would be a solid candidate, as it could use a repaint anyway. I'm not sold on being an early adopter yet.

What frameset would you envision for a conversion?

[Toddtwenty2]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

Early 80's Trek or Raleigh, Motobecane, etc. Lugged steel, 1" quill headset. Light gauge tubing so that it planes. Something originally designed for 27" wheels but now running 700c (or even 650b) wheels.

I mean, assuming you don't already have a constructuer frameset conveniently hiding in your basement.

Signing up for the group test?!

I agree on a mid 80's frameset being pretty great for the use case. I'd likely go with a Trek 720, Schwinn Voyageur SP, Raleigh Portage, or something similar. I'd get dreamy, however, then overspend in adding integrated connectorless lighting, a chain hanger, might as well throw some spoke holders on there, etc... I'd go too far versus just commissioning something new.

I'm probably in the minority, but I think a 28/30 is plenty of tire for this shifter system. I can't see wanting to reach down to a downtube shifter off-piste. I think I'd be looking for a bit more road connection with the smooth, analog version of shifting.

[mcteague]

Originally Posted by 72gmc

Why say "thing" and not "thingie"?

(this is a suggestion masquerading as a question)

Nice Monty Python reference!

Tim

[HTupolev]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Although they offer an "indexed" lever, this is really a friction system. For reliable indexing, there needs to be a mechanism to ensure a constant chain gap (gap between sprockets and jockey pulley), and this derailleur has no such mechanism.

Most derailleurs really aren't all that great in this regard: even if a b-screw allows gap to be set in one of the gears, they can be all over the map in the rest of the range. And a lot of the compromises that can aid this in some respects can hurt it in others: for example, offsetting the jockey wheel from the cage pivot lets a derailleur use the amount of wrapped chain to "self adjust" for the size of the current cog, but it can also cause front shifting to affect the position of the jockey wheel.

The geometry of the Nivex should give the parallelogram a better swing path across the cogs than on most other derailleurs, and the recommended range of cassette sizes is very small. As long as the derailleur was mounted correctly with regards to the wheel axle, and the user doesn't get all that ambitious with going outside spec, I don't see any reason that it couldn't just work.

Originally Posted by dddd

I found "soft" indexing detents to be a constant shifting nightmare compared to pure friction (as evidenced by certain Suntour Accu-7 levers that had an "F7" mode between the index and friction selections). As such, I would not have expected to see any "soft index" lever sold by RH.
Perhaps though with no return spring, it might work ok??? !

Heine's claim is that the design of the system allows them to get away with lighter-action clicks in the shifter than on single-cable systems.

I don't think this has anything to do with the Accushift "soft index" stuff. What made that indexing "soft" wasn't that they had especially weak detents (they didn't), it was that precise control of the derailleur was achieved through friction-shifting between the clicks, rather than by aligning the clicks exactly with the cog positions.

[EB]

[Buzz Killington]

X

[Buzz Killington]

I’m holding out for the Rene Herse Buggy Whip. And TV antenna with included needle nose pliers to turn channels with.

[dddd]

Originally Posted by HTupolev

...Heine's claim is that the design of the system allows them to get away with lighter-action clicks in the shifter than on single-cable systems.

I don't think this has anything to do with the Accushift "soft index" stuff. What made that indexing "soft" wasn't that they had especially weak detents (they didn't), it was that precise control of the derailleur was achieved through friction-shifting between the clicks, rather than by aligning the clicks exactly with the cog positions.

Makes sense that the detents and/or any friction could/should be much lighter without having to hold against a return spring.
But I wonder then why any deliberately-added friction at all?

Those Accu-7 levers had a 3-position knob with three distinct detents for Accu-7, F7 and F (friction). The middle position had both friction and detents which I found annoyingly more-than-useless in operation.
I'm not trying to be harsh toward the early indexing systems, especially since most of them (even Synchro!) can work so much better today than they ever did in the past because of the availability of modern and narrower chains.

I always try for lowest-effort at the lever, entirely lined cable path, with light lubrication (including at the lever pivot and friction surfaces).
I'm perhaps even more fussy with friction setups than indexed in this regard, which I guess somewhat explains my interest in this twin-cable setup.

[HTupolev]

Originally Posted by dddd

But I wonder then why any deliberately-added friction at all?

What are you referring to? On the RH Nivex, Heine is saying that the shifters are as light-action as practical. It doesn't sound like there's any deliberately-added friction on the indexed shifters.

If you mean with respect to Accushift "soft indexing", it's because that mode was a kludge. It was there because Shimano's 1984 indexing scheme was a huge hit, and SunTour launched their response before figuring everything out. The logic was that, if the mechanic couldn't get the indexing working very well and had to fall back to friction, the user would still have their shifts separated by clicks.
What's especially obnoxious is that many of the shifters only had the index and "soft-index" modes, with no pure friction option. Making them fairly useless to anyone who isn't setting up an Accushift drivetrain.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by Buzz Killington

I’m holding out for the Rene Herse Buggy Whip. And TV antenna with included needle nose pliers to turn channels with.

Only if they're analog ...

[tomato coupe]

...

[smontanaro]

Originally Posted by meyatt

I get that, however insofar as I can tell from the post Jan made it's proprietary at the moment and can only be used with a few select Rene Herse frames. That makes it pretty different from Paul or White IMO.

If I read Jan's blog post correctly, it actually comes with the necessary chainstay braze-on. Just take your shiny new Nivex to your favorite framebuilder and say, "Here's the derailleur. You can figure everything else out."

[smontanaro]

Originally Posted by callmeishmael

It looks nicely made, tbf, but it does strike me as a solution looking for a problem.

As I see it, modern electronic shifting systems are the pinnacle of attempts to overcome spring tension when shifting. Jan pointed out that they are desmodromic (no spring), so the (stepper?) motor in the system is responsible for moving the derailleur in both directions. (Can you moderne folk confirm or refute this? I've never looked at a modern electronic shifting system, but I guess it makes sense that the derailleur doesn't need to be sprung.)

Nivex (and likely others) figured out long ago that the best way to overcome spring tension was to just ditch the spring. Jan and the Gang have just apparently just updated that style of derailleur for the 21st century.

If I was thinking of having another new bike frame built, I would certainly consider this. I have no direct experience with modern component pricing, but skimming listings for new Campy Record rear derailleurs on eBay, the Nivex price doesn't seem out of line.