Patent patrol: Campy filed a patent to enable 10t small cogs

[weiwentg]

Courtesy of Bike Rumor: Campagnolo filed a patent for a new freehub/driver design. Quoting from the article:

Next up is Campagnolo, who filed a patent covering an all-new cassette and cassette body for rear wheels. At first glance, this might appear to be a standard cassette with alloy cog carrier, mounted up to a standard freehub (a.k.a. cassette body). However, if you do some careful counting… [of the diagram of the cassette in their patent application] …you might notice that it has a 10-tooth small cog. Indeed, it appears that Campagnolo is finally jumping in to cogs smaller than 11… which may also suggest single chainring (1x) options in the future.

Campy even mentioned in the application that the first cog can be 10t or even smaller. The cassette secures to the freehub/driver by a threaded fastener. This doesn't seem like something anybody is calling for on a double drivetrain, so it really does seem like they are at least thinking of 1x.

Also discussed in the article: Shimano filed a patent for a gearbox. SRAM filed patents for some improvements to its shift ramps.

[Jaybee]

Can someone smarter than me explain why that's not just a SRAM XD cassette?

[mulp]

I think it would be similar to SRAM but campy needs to have its own patent in order to maintain its market share and drive up sales of its own campy cassettes.

This doesnt provide any real value add to the bike industry as a whole and probably is marginally better than what campy already has. This would likely necessitate the need to get a new camp freehub as well which would probably be bad news for current campy owners.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

Can someone smarter than me explain why that's not just a SRAM XD cassette?

It's similar in a lot of ways. The main difference is: For the SRAM XD the cassette carrier (spider) is permanently attached the sprocket "dome", and engages a spline on the freehub body; For the new Campagnolo system, the cassette carrier (spider) is permanently attached to the freehub body, and connects to sprocket "dome" with some type of fastener (the freehub body has no splines).

Form the photos, it appears that existing rear hubs can be retrofitted with the new freehub body. But the drawings seem to indicate that the sprocket "dome" is attached from the back side. For standard spoked wheels, the spider attachment points might be accessed through the spokes from the non-drive side. But this wouldn't be possible if used on a disc wheel. Another concern is that permanently attaching the spider arms to the freehub body limits the range of sizes of sprocket "domes" that can be used. But this might not be of much concern to Campagnolo, as the range of gearing sizes available for each drive train is becoming more and more limited by the manufacturers.

[ultraman6970]

Fastener in a cassette?? Is that even durable? I dont know, the idea looks ok to me but the thing is... it is practical?

The other thing, to me looks a lot simpler just put that 10T cog and the 11 cog together in one block and make it work like the lock ring?? Just need a smaller lock ring tool but besides that looks a lot simpler than re invent the whole concept.

A lot of patents moving around which contain stuff that cant even be used in real world situations, this one looks like one of those.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by ultraman6970

Fastener in a cassette?? Is that even durable? I dont know, the idea looks ok to me but the thing is... it is practical?

The other thing, to me looks a lot simpler just put that 10T cog and the 11 cog together in one block and make it work like the lock ring?? Just need a smaller lock ring tool but besides that looks a lot simpler than re invent the whole concept.

Even if you could somehow jam a 10th sprocket on the end of the freehub body (you can't), there wouldn't be enough clearance around the freehub splines for the chain to seat down between the sprocket teeth. You'd either have to shave down the diameter of the freehub body at the end (like Shimano did to fit 11 tooth sprockets), or reduce the width of the freehub body (so the smaller sprockets could overhang the end of the freehub body). And even then, you'd probably need a smaller diameter lockring thread - the special lockring for 11 tooth sprockets already doesn't have much of a lip on it.

There's really no way to fit a 10 tooth sprocket onto a Campagnolo freehub without a substantial redesign.

[FlashUNC]

Looks like a workaround to avoid stepping on SRAMs XD/XDR toes.

[R3awak3n]

it sucks that at one point we could share cassettes btw all systems and now with 12 speed it is all going to crap

[ERK55]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

it sucks that at one point we could share cassettes btw all systems and now with 12 speed it is all going to crap

Couldn't agree more.
Maybe a reason to stock up on 11 speed stuff.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by ultraman6970

Fastener in a cassette?? Is that even durable? I dont know, the idea looks ok to me but the thing is... it is practical?

The other thing, to me looks a lot simpler just put that 10T cog and the 11 cog together in one block and make it work like the lock ring?? Just need a smaller lock ring tool but besides that looks a lot simpler than re invent the whole concept.

A lot of patents moving around which contain stuff that cant even be used in real world situations, this one looks like one of those.

most granted patents aren't worth much more than the paper on which they are printed

the small numbers that are worth quite a few orders of magnitude more

will anything in this application even mature into an actual patentable claim? your guess is as good as mine

even the premise behind this so called Patent Patrol is misguided. At best, it's a round-up of the latest applications made public available, not actual grants that confer government sanctioned monopolies...

not everything contained in a patent application is actually patentable, and sometimes, the intention might not even be to secure a patentable claim

this is nothing but navel gazing; at least they could have done a round up of actually issued patents...

[bigbill]

I love Campagnolo but they sure seem to thrive on complexity. I was going to get a concealed carry permit, but I think a set of SGR pedals in a sock would be just as effective.

[robertbb]

Originally Posted by ERK55

Couldn't agree more.
Maybe a reason to stock up on 11 speed stuff.

Absolutely!

[bicimechanic]

This could be related to the Campagnolo gravel group coming out in the near future...

[robertbb]

Originally Posted by bicimechanic

This could be related to the Campagnolo gravel group coming out in the near future...

The Chorus 12 crankset has four extra bolts that seem to do nothing... I wonder if they're there as a placeholder for a 1x chainring.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

it sucks that at one point we could share cassettes btw all systems and now with 12 speed it is all going to crap

Kinda, sorta..I'll bet 12s are cross compatible like 11s. At least with one manufacturer, a new freehub body wasn't needed for 12s...And no doubt shimano will (finally) get into the 12s road gig.

Remember tho, patent doesn't equal production. Shimano famously patented a 14s cogset and chain, what, 15 years ago?