*NEW GEN* SRAM Force Groupset March 2023

[mjf]

Originally Posted by FriarQuade

This is the kind of thing that people have been fired over for leaking. Might rethink sharing this stuff to random people on the internet.

If it were say, January 2022, yeah, it's still under NDA, so there'd be something, but December? Definitely not.

Most of this info is already available from the local sales reps, who are telling local shops to expect new product, and next years product lines which are already equipped with the new groupsets.

[lavi]

Originally Posted by Dave

I have three bikes with this year's Force AXS hydraulic levers. I have small hands and the brake hoods seem fine to me - no comfort issues. Rival levers don't have contact point adjustment, so hopefully that won't be the case with revised Force and Red.

I think Rival's lack of contact point adjustment (garbage IMO) and the wired blip ports were the main drivers behind the Rival lever's smaller (and better IMO) size.

I've had both Red/Force and Rival AXS HRD levers. I prefer the Rival.

As to the contact point adjustment: in theory, it's awesome. In practice, at least what I experienced on a few different bikes, it was crap. It could be that the shop/factory that set things up did it poorly. However, all I could really tell was that the adjustment was perfect for one thing and one thing only...making the discs rub.

[century]

Originally Posted by mjf

If it were say, January 2022, yeah, it's still under NDA, so there'd be something, but December? Definitely not.

Most of this info is already available from the local sales reps, who are telling local shops to expect new product, and next years product lines which are already equipped with the new groupsets.

Thanks for the common sense backup on this.

[RoosterCogset]

Would they consider going to mineral oil hydraulics?

[century]

Originally Posted by FriarQuade

Of course it's not a surprise but the consequences are that you've just attempted to devalue millions of dollars of bikes with a single internet post. Sure you didn't name your source but these things have a funny way of getting back to people that make decisions.

False. If I were buying a high end groupset right now (which I started leaning towards), it would have been Dura-Ace, or Ultegra. So this has made the company money, and cost Shimano potentially by mentioning it to me.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by lavi

I think Rival's lack of contact point adjustment (garbage IMO) and the wired blip ports were the main drivers behind the Rival lever's smaller (and better IMO) size.

I've had both Red/Force and Rival AXS HRD levers. I prefer the Rival.

As to the contact point adjustment: in theory, it's awesome. In practice, at least what I experienced on a few different bikes, it was crap. It could be that the shop/factory that set things up did it poorly. However, all I could really tell was that the adjustment was perfect for one thing and one thing only...making the discs rub.

Seems odd to criticize something you don't know how to use. If you follow SRAM's bleed instructions, the contact point is set fully up or counterclockwise when bleeding. This places the pistons/pads as close to the rotor as possible. Turn the adjuster clockwise (in) and the pad clearance increases. That requires more lever travel before pad contact is made. For those with short fingers, the brake lever reach must be adjusted to move the levers closer to the bar as a first step. With a large pad to rotor clearance, the levers will hit the handlebar before creating sufficient braking force. I set my contact adjuster out all the way to minimize the clearance, but that does make it more difficult to eliminate rotor to pad rub. That's just the way it has to be for small handed/short fingered rider.

Even those with long fingers might choose to have little lever travel before braking begins.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by RoosterCogset

Would they consider going to mineral oil hydraulics?

Not likely, IMO. Nearly all cars and motorcycles use DOT fluid, so it can't be much of a problem. I've installed three Force hydraulic systems now. The fluid is easy to deal with - just wipe off with a damp rag. Force and Red use a special fitting at the caliper that makes bleeding simple.

Someone posted about needing to replace fluid every year. Cars don't need this, neither should bikes. If dark fluid is found when bleeding, then replace. There's so little fluid involved that one syringe full should displace all of the old fluid. For cars, brake fluid changes are recommended every 4-5 years.

[AndersCAAD]

Originally Posted by Dave

Seems odd to criticize something you don't know how to use.

No, I think the OP your quote replies to is right, rival axs shifters don't have contact point adjustment. That's been my understanding. here's another source that suggests that is the case: https://cyclingtips.com/2021/04/sram-rival-axs-review/.

[fa63]

That is correct, the Rival AXS shifters do not have contact point adjustment.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by AndersCAAD

No, I think the OP your quote replies to is right, rival axs shifters don't have contact point adjustment. That's been my understanding. here's another source that suggests that is the case: https://cyclingtips.com/2021/04/sram-rival-axs-review/.

Don't think Dave was referencing that Rival AXS had contact point adjustment (CPA), but was rather criticizing Lavi who said that CPA didn't work very well when he used it.

But I agree with Lavi's point, in that CPA in theory was a good idea, and while it does "work" it doesn't really have any real-world positives. Yes, it makes the "start point" of the pads either closer to the rotor or further, but in real-world usage it wasn't enough of a difference/improvement in brake feel, modulation or engagement if you moved the pads closer to the rotor, and it only served in creating more noise with non-straight rotors and/or caliper mount interfaces.

All that CPA does is move the pads, whereas it would make more sense if SRAM could've made CPA act like servo-wave. In other words, make CPA be a trade off of either increased power or increased pad movement.

I honestly think the elimination of CPA makes the hoods on Rival AXS more comfy out front, but the rear is definitely a little bulkier than previous etap HRD shifters. Which is fine in my mind as well since most people aren't really gripping around the base of the shifter, but rather the mid and front portions.

But to the OP, it's been rumored since Rival AXS was intro'd that SRAM was moving towards changing the Red and Force AXS HRD shifter shapes since they hadn't really changed them since the intro of first-gen etap HRD in around 2017.

[Dave]

I avoided Rival shifters because I know they had no contact point adjustment. It's not news to me.

Contact point does alter the amount of pad movement. I have to move the pads as close as possible in order to have the brake lever not touch the bars, with brake lever set for a short reach. Turn the contact point clockwise all the way and there is more pad movement available, but I'd have to adjust the brake lever where I couldn't reach it, to use that pad movement.

[jadedaid]

Originally Posted by century

False. If I were buying a high end groupset right now (which I started leaning towards), it would have been Dura-Ace, or Ultegra. So this has made the company money, and cost Shimano potentially by mentioning it to me.

Some people prefer Sram over Shimano so I don't think its fair to say that this information has no impact. I’m buying a new Red groupset now and it did make me stop and think for a minute. Ultimately preferred to get a good deal now than a maybe deal later. The Friar has contributed a lot of good to this forum so when he has something to say it’s worth pausing and considering it.

That said, it is also fair to say that an upgrade coming is not entirely unexpected and the FCC filing was going to become public knowledge sooner or later. I’ll be a little surprised if we really do get a new Force/Red level groupset given the lack of prototypes spotted.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by Dave

Contact point does alter the amount of pad movement. I have to move the pads as close as possible in order to have the brake lever not touch the bars, with brake lever set for a short reach. Turn the contact point clockwise all the way and there is more pad movement available, but I'd have to adjust the brake lever where I couldn't reach it, to use that pad movement.

That’s not what I was positing, sorry if it was unclear. I meant the amount of pad movement per amount of brake blade/lever throw/movement.

In other words, for your case since you need a shorter lever reach you only have so much usable throw before the lever touches the bars. If the CPA adjusted the ratio between power and throw you could have the pads stay at the wider distance/more clearance but move/engage more per lever pull but ay the cost of power.

Servo wave automatically accomplishes this as the first portion of the lever pull is for closing the gap, and the second is for braking power.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by FriarQuade

Of course it's not a surprise but the consequences are that you've just attempted to devalue millions of dollars of bikes with a single internet post. Sure you didn't name your source but these things have a funny way of getting back to people that make decisions.

HA, something sram, shimano and all the bike makers do every year...I wouldn't worry about some person on a bike forum. Bike shops have been taking it in the shorts every 'new stuff' introduction season..brand new whizbangery, then the LBS have to deep discount of 'old stuff' to make room for the new crap.

[buckfifty]

https://cyclingtips.com/2022/12/are-...ed-axs-levers/

Levers look very much like rival