Jobst stories

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Eli Bingham

My guess is that if he was around today, doing the same thing, he'd most likely be riding a full suspension e-mtb (and complaining on the Internet about that, too).

I'm not sure what he would have thought about ebikes, but he didn't like mountain bikes. He didn't like them because he basically had all the trails to himself in the old days, then when mountain bikes/biking took off, he experienced closed trails and access problems to private property, etc. A lot of the good trails he rode suddenly became off limits. I asked him once why he didn't ride a mountain bike, or at least a bike with wider tires, and he explained that on his rides there was a lot of pavement riding in comparison to dirt, and a heavier bike with fat tires would have slowed him down. Gravel bikes didn't exist as a genre at the time, but bikes like the Bruce Gordon Rock and Road did. The trails he rode in the Santa Cruz Mts were fairly smooth (not rocky) so he could get by with road with tires.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Someone who simply doesn't know something isn't a fool - a fool is someone who has been shown evidence that disproves their belief but believes it anyway.

this is good stuff BTW! I would only add that "evidence" and "disprove" can be really subjective (unless a scientific fact, but the "right way" to ride a bike doesn't usually have much of that)..

[Hindmost]

Originally Posted by MikeD

...he basically had all the trails to himself in the old days, then when mountain bikes/biking took off, he experienced closed trails and access problems to private property, etc. A lot of the good trails he rode suddenly became off limits...

There is a lot to this. A handful of guys coming through the Santa Cruz Mountains (how many square miles?) once in a blue moon was not a problem. Several 1000 every weekend quickly became one. The various parks and open spaces quickly adopted regulations and limitations, rightly so.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

I reference this incredible archive several times a week

https://yarchive.net/bike/index.html

Also here: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/

and http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/

[weisan]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

I reference this incredible archive several times a week

https://yarchive.net/bike/index.html

This is classic!

Because *if* there's something on there that's loose enough to brush
> off, you've got 50% chance of banging it in instead of taking it
> out, and 50% chance of having it pierce your gloves and making you
> remember when you last got tetanus shots. Especially glass shards go
> through gloves like a hot knife through oil.

Oh you lie! What about bare hands? That's the same bugaboo that
people fear when patching a tire. They don't want to run their thumb
around the inside of the tire casing to find the cause of their
puncture for fear of bleeding to death. Your scenario only adds to
that fear. What do YOU get out of that?

I and riding companions have been wiping tubulars in the old days and
wiping the inside of clinchers for nigh on 50 years with no such
incident. I have often volunteered to run my thumb around the inside
of fearful tire patchers on the road, unable to convince them of its
safety... mainly because people like you keep the bloody myth alive.

It is not impossible, but highly improbable, and until you get even a
small scratch in the thumb, you better do it to find the obstacle.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Palo Alto CA

[Pastashop]

I lived and rode in Bay Area in the '90s and early '00s, and interacted (mostly online) with folks on wreck.bikes... The terrain is different there than a lot of other places, that's for sure; that and the prevailing culture at the time were instrumental in allowing the kind of experimentation that lead to the development of MTBs, for example.

One of the issues that Jobst would bring up regarding MTBs is the attitude a lot of those riders brought with them, and how property owners would react to that. Not that people were necessarily super-open to bikies traipsing through private property to begin with, but it was less threatening and off-putting with skinny-tired road bikes, as opposed tractorized aggro-sleds. Yes, you can "dominate" the terrain that much more with full suspension and fat tires, but the ethos doesn't necessarily help expand access.

Jobst also objected to throwaway culture and noobs with more money than sense (dot-commers), whose ability to afford shiny new things for the sake of them being new / different / expensive drove out the more mundane, practical, and economical products.

Jobst also applied good engineering judgement, which is rare in the bike industry, on account of it being too small to attract top materials and mechanical engineering talent versus, say, the automotive, aerospace, energy, and other industries.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Pastashop

Jobst also applied good engineering judgement, which is rare in the bike industry, on account of it being too small to attract top materials and mechanical engineering talent versus, say, the automotive, aerospace, energy, and other industries.

I never had any personal interactions with him, but from what I've read (most notably, Ray Hosler's books), I always got the sense that he's good engineering sense was always tempered a little bit by some machismo. That he tended to look down on advances in cycling technology that made the ride too "easy" for riders he didn't deem worthy. Even something like gear ratios--the man supposedly pushed a gigantic gear, even up some of the toughest climbs, but I think you've seen in more recent years that having easier gear ratios is not just a way to make weak riders survive, but also keeps strong riders at a cadence where they can be more efficient. For his preference for downtube shifters. Integrated shift/brake levers an amazing technology for new riders, allowing them to feel more confident shifting because they don't have to take their hands off the bars. I know I never would have been able to get my wife into cycling with me if we were still living in the downtube shifter era.

Doesn't mean he was off-base in everything--if we look at where bicycles and components are today compared to 40 years ago, we can clearly see there where a lot of improvements just waiting to be made, but his engineering focus seem to be limited to what would serve his own preferences better. And he seem to have little regard for the side of engineering that dealt with how humans actually interact with the bicycle.

I often get a similar feeling about Tom Ritchey, talking about good product design as if he's never tried to put a saddle on one of his one bolt seat posts. And for being an "innovator" in mountain bikes, he sure did innovate some terrible geometry.

[EB]

Originally Posted by Pastashop

I lived and rode in Bay Area in the '90s and early '00s, and interacted (mostly online) with folks on wreck.bikes... The terrain is different there than a lot of other places, that's for sure; that and the prevailing culture at the time were instrumental in allowing the kind of experimentation that lead to the development of MTBs, for example.

One of the issues that Jobst would bring up regarding MTBs is the attitude a lot of those riders brought with them, and how property owners would react to that. Not that people were necessarily super-open to bikies traipsing through private property to begin with, but it was less threatening and off-putting with skinny-tired road bikes, as opposed tractorized aggro-sleds. Yes, you can "dominate" the terrain that much more with full suspension and fat tires, but the ethos doesn't necessarily help expand access.

Jobst also objected to throwaway culture and noobs with more money than sense (dot-commers), whose ability to afford shiny new things for the sake of them being new / different / expensive drove out the more mundane, practical, and economical products.

Jobst also applied good engineering judgement, which is rare in the bike industry, on account of it being too small to attract top materials and mechanical engineering talent versus, say, the automotive, aerospace, energy, and other industries.

There are a ton of challenges with trail access for diverse user groups in the Bay Area - a lot of them have to with the use of charged language like "tractorized aggro-sleds" and the hate and fear that come along with that, along with a sense of entitlement felt by certain extremely vocal equestrian and hiking groups.

These ideas have strangely persisted in the "progressive" NIMBY-ish SF Bay, though thankfully other places are far more welcoming, and a great trail access culture for all has been built up in places like Tahoe, Oregon, Washington State, and many other places, where all user groups are considered and interests are balanced, without having to bring victim-blaming into the equation.

[witcombusa]

No one has mentioned that his bike has no water bottles or mounts for them.
I find that particular 'quirk' very interesting. Tom talked about how he knew where every spring or brook was all through the hills where they road. But what would it hurt to have even a small bottle just in case? It isn't just for drinking, it can cool you off or flush out some road rash too... Sound like a stubborn German to me

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by witcombusa

No one has mentioned that his bike has no water bottles or mounts for them.
I find that particular 'quirk' very interesting. Tom talked about how he knew where every spring or brook was all through the hills where they road. But what would it hurt to have even a small bottle just in case? It isn't just for drinking, it can cool you off or flush out some road rash too... Sound like a stubborn German to me

someone mentioned machismo above..

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by witcombusa

No one has mentioned that his bike has no water bottles or mounts for them.
I find that particular 'quirk' very interesting. Tom talked about how he knew where every spring or brook was all through the hills where they road. But what would it hurt to have even a small bottle just in case? It isn't just for drinking, it can cool you off or flush out some road rash too... Sound like a stubborn German to me

Brandt claimed that the reason that he didn't bring a water bottle was because he didn't mind stopping every hour or so to slake his thirst. He said that he knew all the places to get water around where he rode, so why carry it with you?

He used to make fun of the scare mongering CamelBak advertising slogan "Hydrate or Die", saying that people didn't actually need to drink as much as many people had been led to believe (and based on the well respected book "Waterlogged: The Serious Problem of Overhydration in Endurance Sports", he wasn't entirely wrong).

[Hindmost]

We'll have to talk about Jobst's 'shrooming next.

[Hilltopwalters]

Originally Posted by Hindmost

We'll have to talk about Jobst's 'shrooming next.

As in....the magical kind or the foraging kind?

[David Benson]

Originally Posted by witcombusa

That's a nice looking Ritchie frame he's got there!
Looks like it's set up as half step gearing too.

The frame in the photos is by Peter Johnson

[fiamme red]

If you're interested in Jobst, you need to read this two-part Q&A with Ray Hosler.

https://www.mamnick.com/blogs/journa...q-a-ray-hosler

https://www.mamnick.com/blogs/journa...ith-ray-hosler

You rode a lot with Jobst Brandt, he had a reputation for straight-talking on rec.bike. What was he like in person?

Jobst was an extremely complex person. In general, you shouldn't pigeon hole people, especially Jobst. People have many sides to them that are not visible until you've spent time with them, and even then they may act differently depending on who they're with. I always got along well with Jobst. He could be harsh in his condemnations, but he was a loyal friend who would do anything to help you with a problem. You'll have to read my book, Once Upon a Ride, to get a better picture.

https://www.magcloud.com/user/rayhosler

He was one in a million, the smartest person I ever knew as a friend.