Weigle, Wojcik, IF, Serotta, Fat City: End of an Era?

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Blown Reek

There's really nothing to change since there's really nothing different from what they were doing back in the day versus what's going on today. Unless you're talking about something that is different (like what Argonaut and Pursuit are doing), it's pretty much all the same. Metal tubes welded, metal and carbon mixed, your choice of paint/finishes- that's pretty much it.

I disagree - builders like Firefly and Vanilla (and latterly Sturdy and Bastion) are pushing the craft forward with innovations in dropout, brake mount, bb shell and yoke design. Some are reviving lugged or socketed construction through advancements in 3D-printed Ti. IF isn't keeping up with any of that, as far as their potential customer can see.

What I always appreciated (and tell a lot of folks) about the builders mentioned at the top of this thread is that the bikes they made were being used for riding unsealed road and trails long before the terms 'Road Plus' and 'Gravel' became market segments.

I arrived on the East Coast only 9 years ago, and my first big out-of-town ride was the Taconic 150 with NYC Velo. The riders that showed up were mostly seasoned racers on some truly lovely handmade road rigs from IF, Firefly, Spooky, Rosko, Parlee and Pegoretti. Not a disc brake in sight, and the chubbiest tyre there was a 28mm Ruffy Tuffy on my buddy Ian's Darkstar. Ian wasn't alone in running such a setup though, and it made me realise (from the saddle of my alloy LeMond on 100psi 23s) that a subtle increase in tyre size and reduction in pressure could open up many more routes to a rider.
I knew a thousand riders had been where we rode that day, and that the framebuilders of this region were already supporting that riding style by offering a smidge more tyre clearance and geometry for medium/long-reach rim brakes.
It's a shame that bikes like that aren't at the front of most consumers minds when shopping these days, as many folks really don't need such wide-range cassettes, overbuilt frames or even disc brakes.

[carlucci1106]

Originally Posted by cmg

What does "changed with the times" mean? IF we're building gravel bikes, disk brakes, electronic shifting. What weren't doing being on social media?

Excellent question. And that's what I believe I'm trying to find out. There is a clear difference between a mountain bike built for Rocky Mountain, Sierras, slickrock-laden Southwest riding as one built for East Coast chunk and low-speed technical labyrinth-esque singletrack.

For those that don't know, I cut my teeth growing up in New England, born and raised, and have a lot of hometown pride. NH high school graduate, started an MTB Club/Team at my school. I grew up with homies rolling in Fat Chances, Wojciks, Weigles and IF into the shop-- and those were the bikes I considered exemplars of utmost class. This thread has no intent of poo-pooing the NE/NY region. We will always be relevant!

It seems on the national level, from where I sit- everyone is obsessed with how much travel, and long/slack you can make a bike. Here in MN we don't need it. In NE/NY you don't need it.

So you've got a Fat Chance, for instance, with Moab-ready front travel, that has pretty much traditional east coast geo. Seems like a mismatch. Not to mention, could either of us fit on that size Small Yo Eddy, CMG? I couldn't even straddle the top tube, according to those charts.

So, I'm not meaning to start a fued, or omit any important builders, but it seems that the era of builders I grew up with are struggling with a dichotomy... either build for the national trends, and remain "relevant" or stick to their 'roots' (pun intended), and build for a loyal fanbase closer to home.

The reason I bring up Rusty Lion, I hope some of you picked up on that nuance. I remember him saying brazing steel would cost the consumer an embarrasing sum of money that they are not prepared to bring to market at this juncture. Ironically, some of the forerunner brands most talked about on this forum are doing just that-- making the bike with traditional craftsmanship, cost-be-damned, no apologies.

I haven't seen an IF being shown off in a long time. Maybe I need Instagram, but I can't devote any more time to any apps, especially Meta-controlled ones.

I have seen 0 new Serottas. I believe they are in business, but does anyone have one, or is $10-14k a little cost prohibitive? Who has one? How does it ride?

Fat Chance...same
Wojcik, I read an article that he was welding some bikeshare bikes (?)
Frank the Welder... Crust Alumalith, don't get me started (that really showed my ornery side in that thread )

As for the techniques, I never need someone like an IF to do anything differently for me to desire one. But they need web presence, and they need it fast- ATMO. Without the glamor shots, can a company grow in this present reality?

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by Blown Reek

There's really nothing to change... I got bored with them once the dew was off the rose for whatever reason.

A well written reply. You reveal the unspoken, ugly truth.

Originally Posted by carlucci1106

...Without the glamor shots, can a company grow in this present reality?

I agree. The market has changed and you HAVE to have a presence on the internet, and probably some sort of participation in bike forums, to get the exposure to expand/sustain your business.

[Blown Reek]

Originally Posted by Mr B

I disagree - builders like Firefly and Vanilla (and latterly Sturdy and Bastion) are pushing the craft forward with innovations in dropout, brake mount, bb shell and yoke design. Some are reviving lugged or socketed construction through advancements in 3D-printed Ti. IF isn't keeping up with any of that, as far as their potential customer can see.

But how much better is a 3D printed titanium dropout anyway? And what other brake mounts are out there besides flat mount for road bikes and post mount for mountain bikes? Are ever-changing bottom bracket standards really a good thing? All these things seems like an exercise in differentiating one brand from another. Firefly came out with their 3D printed dropouts, but they lost the beautifully (personal taste, of course) designed previous model, however they were (I think) the first. Now Moots has them (because you can't not anymore), and every other "unique" titanium manufacturer does, too. Heck, you can even buy a 3D printed titanium dropout from Reynolds now.

And as aesthetically pleasing (personal taste, of course) as a Bastion is with its titanium lugs and carbon tubes, is there really a difference between a 3D printed lug versus a welded one? Is the Bastion "better" than a Holland, or Firefly, or Seven, or No.22?

There's no denying the "holy grail" of bicycle performance is the carbon monocoque or multicoque bike, if you base performance on race bikes. Does an S-Works excel in randonneuring like a Rivendell? No, but you're not getting a Rivendell for performance. Most of the times, these innovations' first goal is ease in manufacturing for the builder (like the 3D printed dropout), or to keep as many parts in-house to keep costs down (under the guise of quality control, of course), like Firefly with their "tapered" headtube, in lieu of the tapered head tubes they used to use. Given the new design might be lighter, but it sure ain't as pretty (personal taste, of course).

Now that I've actually experienced the new wave of bikes (carbon, disc and electronic shifting), I'm pretty sure that I'll never get another metal bike again. However, the six hours it took me to install the EPS wires and hoses in the integrated handlebars on my C68 made me realize that even though the newest stuff is completely cool, it was an absolute pain in the ass. Good thing it's got those new CeramicSpeed SLT that are maintenance-free because I've never had a more difficult installation in my life (and I've build dozens of Cervelo S5's which, up until now, were the benchmark for unnecessary complexity). Part of it is that EPS installs opposite from Shimano, but still.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Blown Reek

But how much better is a 3D printed titanium dropout anyway? And what other brake mounts are out there besides flat mount for road bikes and post mount for mountain bikes? Are ever-changing bottom bracket standards really a good thing? All these things seems like an exercise in differentiating one brand from another. Firefly came out with their 3D printed dropouts, but they lost the beautifully (personal taste, of course) designed previous model, however they were (I think) the first. Now Moots has them (because you can't not anymore), and every other "unique" titanium manufacturer does, too. Heck, you can even buy a 3D printed titanium dropout from Reynolds now.

And as aesthetically pleasing (personal taste, of course) as a Bastion is with its titanium lugs and carbon tubes, is there really a difference between a 3D printed lug versus a welded one? Is the Bastion "better" than a Holland, or Firefly, or Seven, or No.22?

For that market segment, there is no 'better' or 'best' - no matter what a builder might say. As proven by comments on here, bikes of that nature are essentially jewellery and enthusiasts will change them out on a whim. As the guy manning the Blancpain booth at Baselworld once said to me, "Wristwatches aren't about telling the time anymore. Your cellphone does that more accurately than anything in these halls. They are about complication, fascination, romance and nostalgia."

[Blown Reek]

Originally Posted by Mr B

there is no 'better' or 'best' - no matter what a builder might say.

I completely agree.

[carlucci1106]

Originally Posted by Blown Reek

But how much better is a 3D printed titanium dropout anyway?snip...

.. on my C68 made me realize that even though the newest stuff is completely cool, it was an absolute pain in the ass. Good thing it's got those new CeramicSpeed SLT that are maintenance-free because I've never had a more difficult installation in my life (and I've build dozens of Cervelo S5's which, up until now, were the benchmark for unnecessary complexity). Part of it is that EPS installs opposite from Shimano, but still.

In the traditional framebuilder model, the one person toils away, filing away metal and sweating profusely to make you a beautiful, tailored and tuned ride. If geo is nailed and tube choices, the finish to suit, you may have the best riding piece of art in the world. Priceless.

A 3D printed item does not speak to me. Binary code is functional, but it's impersonal. I do admit it looks cool in certain frames. But it doesn't strike me as having a end-use benefit. It is different and new, but is it better? I like that some of these designs can be produced quickly, but isn't TIG welded pretty efficient? It has never bothered me that IFs are TIG'd, just like Pegs don't bother me (or nearly anyone, as the toil went into the art, and the ride is... well...Dario) for being mostly TIG. I felt IF was an exceptional value, akin to Rock Lobster, but for the East coast.

As your internally routed, mono/multicocque frames parallel here, it is the idea that the result is worth the blood, sweat, and tears. I feel that. It never bothered me to do a 5+ hour build for a customer, so long as they were stoked.

Keep it coming- I'm hoping this thread brings out/ branches out to general and specific ideas. Thanks

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Posted by Mr B

<cut> They are about complication, fascination, romance and nostalgia."

As a longtime follower (and acolyte) of the AHCI, I'll add that I can think of very little for which the words in your comment don't apply. We all need and want things that keep us happy and, to a degree, differentiated from others around us. It's not just timepieces. It's everything.

[Alexi]

Originally Posted by fourflys

not quite sure that's 100% accurate.. with the rise in gravel bikes, endurance geos, slacker MTBs, etc, things have changed a bit from 20 yrs ago.. some builders might be the type to say "I'm only building this type of bike".. and a certain subset of riders will certainly appreciate that, while a great many others will want the current designs, but with a custom flair IMHO..

I think that is what might have been meant by "changing with the times".. at least for me..

And Indy Fab have been doing gravel bikes and endurance geo since it was a thing. In general their Steel Delux geo has followed the trends, if you order one today you’re getting modern geo. And they’re going to ask you what you’re gonna do with it; if you’re doing XC they’ll build you an Xc bike, if you’re doing all mountain that’s what they’re gonna build you.

[Alexi]

Originally Posted by carlucci1106

I haven't seen an IF being shown off in a long time. Maybe I need Instagram, but I can't devote any more time to any apps, especially Meta-controlled ones

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=288888

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by Alexi

And Indy Fab have been doing gravel bikes and endurance geo since it was a thing. In general their Steel Delux geo has followed the trends, if you order one today you’re getting modern geo. And they’re going to ask you what you’re gonna do with it; if you’re doing XC they’ll build you an Xc bike, if you’re doing all mountain that’s what they’re gonna build you.

nice! Jeremy Sycip is doing the same with his MTBs, they are very popular around Sonoma County it seems..

[HenryA]

A bike builder who has been around since the 80s has about run the course of human life. So, to the extent that those builders are animated by an individual, they have simply run out of steam and are done.

Add in that modern life is so influenced by social media hyping what’s new and you have a situation where the new thing is necessary to success. For those who have been around long enough to see the new recycled for its second or third iteration, its hard to get excited about new.

For me, part of the mystique of a bespoke bicycle was/is that another human put large amounts of intention into the concept, design and realization of the bike. As above, the latest new thing seems to rule today. I’m pretty much unimpressed. A lot of the new things answer questions I never asked and still don’t today.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by HenryA

A bike builder who has been around since the 80s has about run the course of human life. So, to the extent that those builders are animated by an individual, they have simply run out of steam and are done.

Add in that modern life is so influenced by social media hyping what’s new and you have a situation where the new thing is necessary to success. For those who have been around long enough to see the new recycled for its second or third iteration, its hard to get excited about new.

For me, part of the mystique of a bespoke bicycle was/is that another human put large amounts of intention into the concept, design and realization of the bike. As above, the latest new thing seems to rule today. I’m pretty much unimpressed. A lot of the new things answer questions I never asked and still don’t today.

I think you're on target, but I wonder over the next decade or two whether the target market for custom bikes will shrink as we old guys die off? Is there as large of a cohort of, say, 30 year old cyclists that as they age and their finances improve will want the equivalent of a Kirk, Bingham, or Peg?

[B4_Ford]

I’m an old fart that prefers steel frames and rim brakes. When I was younger, I could not afford the custom bikes of the era as I was busy making other poor life choices, eventually getting married, raising kids, etc. etc. Now that I’m in a place where I could afford a $10k-$15k custom bike, I have no interest in doing so. My collection is mostly 10-20 year old bikes that started as expensive custom builds for their original owners. As others have said, there is magic in the newness of a custom “forever” bike, but eventually that wears off and it becomes another bike in the stable, one that will most likely be sold. I much prefer to be the guy that buys your custom “forever” bike once you realize that forever is a mighty long time and you want to sell it in favor of something else or life forces changes in your priorities.

So please, keep buying custom bikes. I’ll be there to buy them from you once that day inevitably comes. While most of my bikes are metal, the Meivici that I picked up not long ago convinced me that not all carbon is bad. Who knows, you might be the person that sells me the bike that converts me to the gospel of disc brakes and electronic shifting.


I have bad ideas…

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by B4_Ford

So please, keep buying custom bikes. I’ll be there to buy them from you once that day inevitably comes. While most of my bikes are metal, the Meivici that I picked up not long ago convinced me that not all carbon is bad. Who knows, you might be the person that sells me the bike that converts me to the gospel of disc brakes and electronic shifting.


I have bad ideas…

yep, yep, yep!