The ongoing hookless rims saga

[Andy340]

Campagnolo Levante wheels have mini hook that is compatible with ETRTO clincher and tubeless standards (from the specs) so that looks like a reasonable approach to dealing with various tire requirements.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Spdntrxi

Really you cant think of any ? Assuming done right
weight reduction
aerodynamics
comfort (mainly because you can reduce tire pressure)
strength

These are the claims by the makes of hookless rims, but many of the claims don't stand up to the sniff test.

For example, aerodynamics - for wheel aerodynamics, matching tire width to rim width matters a lot. But as we've seen, tires on hookless rims have to be wider than tires on a hooked rim (of the same rim width), so if anything, hookless rims have an aerodynamic disadvantage.

As far as being both lighter and stronger, this post from the Weight Weenies forum sums up the incongruity:

Do people think this through or just roll with it when wheel brands make this claim?

Wheel brands say it's stronger and lighter. It's only one or the other:
1. Lighter if the hook is removed and sidewall not thickened. But then it's not stronger.
2. Stronger if the area below the hook is filled in. But then it's not lighter.

In both cases, the difference in weight and strength are negligible in practice.

It should be further pointed out that when Zipp first introduced their hookless rims, they claimed it helped make them lighter - but then Zipp quietly increased their published wheel weights by a substantial amount.

[cash05458]

yep...as a user of both clincher and tubulars...this right here.

Originally Posted by GregL

Every time I read one of these threads (hookless rims/tubeless tires for paved road riding), I smile and think how glad I am to be riding conventional clinchers on hooked rims. No fuss, no drama, and very few flats. Am I giving away a few watts to more “modern” tubeless setups? Sure. But apparently not enough watts to keep me off masters podiums. My mantra: to finish first, you first must finish.

Greg

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by GregL

Am I giving away a few watts to more “modern” tubeless setups? Sure. But apparently not enough watts to keep me off masters podiums.

If you are using latex tubes, you are not giving away any watts to tubeless users. And you may be saving a few watts compared to a tubeless user that has topped off their sealant a few times.

[benb]

This article is linked on the WW page that was just linked. It's an excellent article:

https://escapecollective.com/thomas-...arning-to-all/

There is a comment in there that Zipp has now filed for a patent on a method to bond a hook onto the rim after the initial molding. This would get them the cheaper method for the main mold process plus the safety of a hook.

Going to be a riot if they all change back to hooks in the end and start telling us hooks are great again.. figuring out a better way to make the hook seems like a better solution than eliminating it.

[Spdntrxi]

Originally Posted by benb

This article is linked on the WW page that was just linked. It's an excellent article:

https://escapecollective.com/thomas-...arning-to-all/

There is a comment in there that Zipp has now filed for a patent on a method to bond a hook onto the rim after the initial molding. This would get them the cheaper method for the main mold process plus the safety of a hook.

Going to be a riot if they all change back to hooks in the end and start telling us hooks are great again.. figuring out a better way to make the hook seems like a better solution than eliminating it.

agreed going back to hooks and claiming anything at this point is a bad look. I'm not tied to hookless, just so happens that my quiver contains 4 sets of hookless. Has not always been like that.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Spdntrxi

agreed going back to hooks and claiming anything at this point is a bad look. I'm not tied to hookless, just so happens that my quiver contains 4 sets of hookless. Has not always been like that.

Well, a number of frame/bike makers have gone back to threaded BBs after a few years using pressed in BBs, so anything is possible.

Bicycle product technology has moved in oscillating cycles for decades. First it was short cranks, then it was long cranks, now its short cranks again. First it was round chainrings, then it was eccentric chainrings, then it was round chainrings again, then it was eccentric chainrings again, then it was round chainrings ... And for clincher rims, first it was hookless, then it was hooked, then it was hookless again, and for all we know it may go back to hooked.

[benb]

https://youtu.be/YJc3DVVcTuM?si=n_kzjopaKol-Y2nx&t=277

Actually SRAM was granted the patent.

This guy talks about it and if you were motivated you can get the patent # out of the video.

[notsew]

Originally Posted by benb

...

There's a major dissonance between a pro riders union saying they think this is too unsafe for the benefits provided and then we have recreational riders or amateur racers saying the benefits are so important the risk is worth it.

Here here. We're all just trying to look "pro" and willing to accept a less safe product to do it.

Hookless is so obviously a margin grab by the manufacturers. It's clearly less safe. What benefit do we get for accepting a less safe alternative? none. not even cheaper or lighter wheels.

Yesterday I read this velo article and it just seemed so silly to me that people would go out and buy these hookless rims, surely people will vote with their pocket book and buy the clearly safer alternative... Reading this thread, not so much.... gotta look pro and rock those zipps.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by benb

Given how high end & expensive these wheels are I'd wonder if the # of riders on them is just too small for their to be enough accidents to end up taking them off the market. It might be the % of riders having issues would be high enough to get CPSC or someone else to take notice if these were super common and were going on millions of bikes, but since we're talking $2000+ wheelsets in a lot of cases the total # of accidents would fly under the radar.

well, if you consider any Giant sold with carbon wheels are hookless, that's not nothing.. my $4k Revolt Adv 0 has the CX2 hookless wheels on it and that is just a "middle of the road" bike at this point.. I wonder how many TT bikes are sold with hookless..

I think the bottom line for me is this: I can have a hookless rim issue or I could have a front tire flat while descending at 30+ mph.. I'm not sure either one would be that different in the result.. either case, you are probably going down hard.. you might be able to make a case for a rear wheel issue, but a decent bike handler could probably come ok with either set-up.. a hookless issue or front tire blowout while cruising along at my sub-20 mph (usually closer to 16mph) doesn't really concern me to be honest..

but to each their own for sure on this one!

*I'm really not for or against, I just don't see the big issue..

[MikeD]

I think rim hooks are a marvelous piece of engineering. Something so simple that weighs almost nothing enables lightweight, high pressure tires with a flimsy bead to stay on the rim without blowing off and results in an increase in safety to boot. Bravo!

[November Dave]

Manufacturing hooked rims was made more difficult by the resins that were needed to make rim brake rims that were more resistant to being destroyed by braking heat. The properties of and additives introduced to these resins didn't flow as readily as simpler resins do. So our arc was seeing a lot less brake heat damage, but a ton more rims with unacceptable hooks. We saw this across a lot of brands, too.

Since disc brakes allow simpler resins to be used and the cooking procedures are much less fidgety, I built like 1000 rims without ever seeing other than a perfectly molded hook. We never saw impact damage to hooks on hooked disc rims.

Hooks still require a more complex mold and molding/demolding process.

If hookless is going to be stronger than hooked, the rim will be nominally heavier than an equivalent hooked rim because the sidewall in that hookless rim is thicker. The material makes it stronger, the lack of material makes it lighter. If can't have more material and be lighter.

Aero impacts will be dominated by the inner and outer width of the rim and how they compare to the tire's width. How the bead of the tire interacts inside of the rim below the hook will have at most a small effect on tire shape. I suspect that people are pulling this claim of better aero out of their backsides, but who knows?

There's no doubt that molding hookless rims is more efficient than molding hooked rims.

I personally use hookless on mtb and hooks on everything else.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Andy340

Campagnolo Levante wheels have mini hook that is compatible with ETRTO clincher and tubeless standards (from the specs) so that looks like a reasonable approach to dealing with various tire requirements.

While this sounds like a good idea, I think the use of "mini hook" is also going to lead to a lot of problems. Seems like that same terminology is being used by some folks to describe a rim that's compatible with all clincher/tubeless tires, while others are using "mini hook" to describe a rim that's only compatible with hookless compatible tires but with slightly higher blow-off protection.

[RoosterCogset]

Originally Posted by fourflys

well, if you consider any Giant sold with carbon wheels are hookless, that's not nothing.. my $4k Revolt Adv 0 has the CX2 hookless wheels on it and that is just a "middle of the road" bike at this point.. I wonder how many TT bikes are sold with hookless..

I think the bottom line for me is this: I can have a hookless rim issue or I could have a front tire flat while descending at 30+ mph.. I'm not sure either one would be that different in the result.. either case, you are probably going down hard.. you might be able to make a case for a rear wheel issue, but a decent bike handler could probably come ok with either set-up.. a hookless issue or front tire blowout while cruising along at my sub-20 mph (usually closer to 16mph) doesn't really concern me to be honest..

but to each their own for sure on this one!

*I'm really not for or against, I just don't see the big issue..

I will say, Giant is odd one out on this issue. They sell TCRs with hookless rims matched with their own 25mm tires. While pretty much any other tire maker won't spec their 25mm TL tires for hookless. Mind you, their ID rim widths are less than 20mm (19.4mm).

[NHAero]

The Escape Collective article linked is very informative and well worth reading. I'm still feeling no anxiety riding my two sets of BTLOS hookless wheels, as I'm running compatible 650B tires at either 38 or 42mm, at a max of 40 psi, on 22mm inside width rims. If I were buying wheels today I would probably look harder for a hooked version for that extra safety factor.