OT: 2019-20 NBA Discussions

[boomforeal]

I’m so happy LeBron is getting hammered for his “uneducated” statement about Daryl Morey. What a chump

[Aaron O]

As a former history major, and foreign policy buff who has read quite a bit about China, I think I know a little more about China than the average person, and I don't feel qualified to have an opinion about Hong Kong. Nor do I think applying our risk management/human rights approach as the wealthiest nation on earth to other countries is entirely appropriate.

China does pretty rough stuff...most nations/governments have. Hong Kong is a difficult situation for both "sides", and it was always going to be a difficult situation.

Further, this is all directly related to the trade wars, which should not be fought as publicly as they have been fought, and which have also served to back China's hard liners into a corner with national pride loudly on the line. I recall Dubya doing that over the downed airplane, and ending up apologizing.

In short...it's a complicated issue...why would we expect NBA players to have strident opinions? And no...because you have an opinion about domestic policies and how they effect you doesn't mean you're required to have an opinion about civil rights in Hong Kong.

Sure - we'd all chose a civil rights respecting democracy everywhere, but that's not how civil rights, nor democracy, evolve. Nor would you pick that once the cost was reflected in the goods you buy at walmart.

It's OK not to have opinions about things you don't know about. In fact, it should be encouraged.

[Big Dan]

^
That's what he should have said.
Something like "I'm not well versed on the subject......."

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Big Dan

^
That's what he should have said.
Something like "I'm not well versed on the subject......."

China puts ethnic and religious minorities in labor camps. This isn't hard or particularly complex.

It was an easier fact for the NBA to ignore before Morey's rather innocuous tweet. The problem is how the league reacted to China putting the clamps down. It looked craven and morally bankrupt because it was.

[Jaybee]

I'm a little ambivalent about LeBron's statements. On the one hand, he and his teammates were in China at the time and may have felt less than safe. I don't know what that's like and I don't want to judge. On the other hand, it's easy to read into his statements a sort of bending-the-knee to the $ - this is craven and undermines some of his previous statements about how his platform and relative invulnerability requires him to take a moral stand where one exists.

Aaron has some good thoughts above, and it never hurts to know a little more about what you are talking about. Dunc'd on had Bill Bishop on yesterday - it's a good listen if you want to be a little more informed than the average person.

[Jaybee]

Days left! I chose Goran today because

1) His 23 point 4Q in the 2010 playoffs against the Spurs is one of my great basketball memories.
2) The Vice jerseys are the best uniforms in sports. They deserve some air time.
3) I'd like to talk about the EC - who are your 8 playoff seeds? Who represents in the Finals?
I'll go:
-Bucks
-Sixers
-Celtics
-Pacers
-Raptors
-Magic
-Pistons
-Bulls

Sixers in the Finals.

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

Days left! I chose Goran today because

1) His 23 point 4Q in the 2010 playoffs against the Spurs is one of my great basketball memories.
2) The Vice jerseys are the best uniforms in sports. They deserve some air time.
3) I'd like to talk about the EC - who are your 8 playoff seeds? Who represents in the Finals?
I'll go:
-Bucks
-Sixers
-Celtics
-Pacers
-Raptors
-Magic
-Pistons
-Bulls

Sixers in the Finals.

Not bragging (yes, I’m bragging) but I got 15/16 right last season, and also picked the improvement of Sacramento. I had the warriors beating the raps in a tough game.

East

Bucs
Sixers
Pacers
Celtics
Heat
Pistons
Raptors
Hawks

West

Clippers
Nuggets
Lakers
Jazz
Rockets
Blazers
Kings
Spurs

(Yes, I picked Warriors missing the playoffs)

ECF

Sixers best Bucs

WCF

Clippers over Nuggets

Sixers over Clippers (homer!!!)

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

China puts ethnic and religious minorities in labor camps. This isn't hard or particularly complex.

It was an easier fact for the NBA to ignore before Morey's rather innocuous tweet. The problem is how the league reacted to China putting the clamps down. It looked craven and morally bankrupt because it was.

I understand and respect where you're coming from, but, even at the risk of sounding like a monstrous jerk, I'm not sure that I agree.

Ultimately, in the words of FDR, he may be an SOB, but he's our SOB.

Human rights respecting democracy doesn't just happen...it only can occur when there are diverse economic interests that split power, and enough money to get buy in from the populace. Is taking money out of China really better, long run, for the average Chinese citizen?

As brutal, cold and heartless as capitalism is, it does, long term, build wealth, and build economic diversity, in places with sufficient assets and resources (China certainly qualifies). Long term, civil rights accompany free trade - we have the freedoms we have largely to preserve, and serve, capitalism/business. The entire American Revolution was about rejecting mercantile capitalism, at least in the north east. All of our rights follow from the things it takes to be able to conduct free trade.

In places without those things, the ology doesn't really matter...at the end of the day, who ever has the limited resources makes the rules and preserves them through coercion, since they can't afford buy in.

More to the point, everyone pointing fingers over Hong Kong is benefiting from the relationship, and if we expect the NBA to take a holy stand, we'd better be willing to make them as consumers. I think there's a lot of hypocrisy.

Example - a lot of the same people in my Reddit Sixers group that are outraged on behalf of Hong Kong openly brag about where they get their DHGate, IP theft, made in China fake jerseys.

Finally - when we're putting kids in cages, and the majority of whites in this country believe they are discriminated against, what moral authority do we have as a country?

To reiterate the point, this NBA furor is one battle in the greater trade war, isolationist, populist/high volume strategy being employed by our administration. This is as much about the game show host as it is about Morey.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

Days left! I chose Goran today because

1) His 23 point 4Q in the 2010 playoffs against the Spurs is one of my great basketball memories.
2) The Vice jerseys are the best uniforms in sports. They deserve some air time.
3) I'd like to talk about the EC - who are your 8 playoff seeds? Who represents in the Finals?
I'll go:
-Bucks
-Sixers
-Celtics
-Pacers
-Raptors
-Magic
-Pistons
-Bulls

Sixers in the Finals.

Hawks will be the 8 seed.

Originally Posted by Aaron O

I understand and respect where you're coming from, but, even at the risk of sounding like a monstrous jerk, I'm not sure that I agree.

Ultimately, in the words of FDR, he may be an SOB, but he's our SOB.

Human rights respecting democracy doesn't just happen...it only can occur when there are diverse economic interests that split power, and enough money to get buy in from the populace. Is taking money out of China really better, long run, for the average Chinese citizen?

As brutal, cold and heartless as capitalism is, it does, long term, build wealth, and build economic diversity, in places with sufficient assets and resources (China certainly qualifies). Long term, civil rights accompany free trade - we have the freedoms we have largely to preserve, and serve, capitalism/business. The entire American Revolution was about rejecting mercantile capitalism, at least in the north east. All of our rights follow from the things it takes to be able to conduct free trade.

In places without those things, the ology doesn't really matter...at the end of the day, who ever has the limited resources makes the rules and preserves them through coercion, since they can't afford buy in.

More to the point, everyone pointing fingers over Hong Kong is benefiting from the relationship, and if we expect the NBA to take a holy stand, we'd better be willing to make them as consumers. I think there's a lot of hypocrisy.

Example - a lot of the same people in my Reddit Sixers group that are outraged on behalf of Hong Kong openly brag about where they get their DHGate, IP theft, made in China fake jerseys.

Finally - when we're putting kids in cages, and the majority of whites in this country believe they are discriminated against, what moral authority do we have as a country?

To reiterate the point, this NBA furor is one battle in the greater trade war, isolationist, populist/high volume strategy being employed by our administration. This is as much about the game show host as it is about Morey.

It ain't hard to be anti-internment camps and pro people not wanting to be placed into internment camps for their beliefs, whether it's at the border or in China or anywhere else. As an individual, demanding both our own nation and others to hold themselves to a seemingly simple standard -- don't throw people in camps -- is suddenly a complicated and nuanced thing? Nah, let's not muddy the waters unnecessarily.

NBA is choosing dollars over human rights. It ain't a good look and it's why Silver doesn't have any good answers for it. But hey, he's got $4 billion reasons to shut up about it I guess.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Aaron O

I understand and respect where you're coming from, but, even at the risk of sounding like a monstrous jerk, I'm not sure that I agree.

Ultimately, in the words of FDR, he may be an SOB, but he's our SOB.

Human rights respecting democracy doesn't just happen...it only can occur when there are diverse economic interests that split power, and enough money to get buy in from the populace. Is taking money out of China really better, long run, for the average Chinese citizen?

As brutal, cold and heartless as capitalism is, it does, long term, build wealth, and build economic diversity, in places with sufficient assets and resources (China certainly qualifies). Long term, civil rights accompany free trade - we have the freedoms we have largely to preserve, and serve, capitalism/business. The entire American Revolution was about rejecting mercantile capitalism, at least in the north east. All of our rights follow from the things it takes to be able to conduct free trade.

In places without those things, the ology doesn't really matter...at the end of the day, who ever has the limited resources makes the rules and preserves them through coercion, since they can't afford buy in.

More to the point, everyone pointing fingers over Hong Kong is benefiting from the relationship, and if we expect the NBA to take a holy stand, we'd better be willing to make them as consumers. I think there's a lot of hypocrisy.

Example - a lot of the same people in my Reddit Sixers group that are outraged on behalf of Hong Kong openly brag about where they get their DHGate, IP theft, made in China fake jerseys.

Finally - when we're putting kids in cages, and the majority of whites in this country believe they are discriminated against, what moral authority do we have as a country?

To reiterate the point, this NBA furor is one battle in the greater trade war, isolationist, populist/high volume strategy being employed by our administration. This is as much about the game show host as it is about Morey.

This caveat was unnecessary. Very thought provoking and articulate response.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Hawks will be the 8 seed.





It ain't hard to be anti-internment camps and pro people not wanting to be placed into internment camps for their beliefs, whether it's at the border or in China or anywhere else. As an individual, demanding both our own nation and others to hold themselves to a seemingly simple standard -- don't throw people in camps -- is suddenly a complicated and nuanced thing? Nah, let's not muddy the waters unnecessarily.

NBA is choosing dollars over human rights. It ain't a good look and it's why Silver doesn't have any good answers for it. But hey, he's got $4 billion reasons to shut up about it I guess.

But hard to argue with this ...

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Hawks will be the 8 seed.





It ain't hard to be anti-internment camps and pro people not wanting to be placed into internment camps for their beliefs, whether it's at the border or in China or anywhere else. As an individual, demanding both our own nation and others to hold themselves to a seemingly simple standard -- don't throw people in camps -- is suddenly a complicated and nuanced thing? Nah, let's not muddy the waters unnecessarily.

NBA is choosing dollars over human rights. It ain't a good look and it's why Silver doesn't have any good answers for it. But hey, he's got $4 billion reasons to shut up about it I guess.

Needless to say, I’m not advocating for camps of any sort - I’m Jewish and lost my family tree to that sort of thing. I stopped all donations to any charitables except the ones dedicated to defending the ones being targeted here - because, for me, that’s the top priority.

That said, when it comes to business, I’m a fan of compartmentalization. I don’t do the boycott thing, unless I wouldn’t use it anyway. Silver isn’t just making a decision for his wallet, but one for 30 franchises, g league affiliates, and WNBA teams that are part of this ecosystem. He has a duty to his stakeholders...

And as we all know, those MAGA hats aren’t made in Nebraska. We do business with a lot of devils, and, over time, I think it’s end up being for the best for those in those countries.

[Jaybee]

The Hawks are fun, and on the right track, but are they really gonna win 10-12 more games than last year? Last year they outperformed their point differential by 4 games, so you're actually saying they will be 15-17 wins better.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Aaron O

That said, when it comes to business, I’m a fan of compartmentalization. I don’t do the boycott thing, unless I wouldn’t use it anyway. Silver isn’t just making a decision for his wallet, but one for 30 franchises, g league affiliates, and WNBA teams that are part of this ecosystem. He has a duty to his stakeholders...

He's also got a duty as a human being to have something approaching a moral compass, as do all those stakeholders he's supposedly advocating for.

This decision has undercut over a decade of goodwill they've built up being viewed as the Big Four sports league committed to supporting social causes.

The optics are terrible and even if you put aside the "he should have a conscience" notion because of some idea that ROI sits higher on the hierarchy of needs than sleeping at night, this does put some real risk into their long-term returns. Hopefully stakeholders have enough foresight to see that.

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

The Hawks are fun, and on the right track, but are they really gonna win 10-12 more games than last year? Last year they outperformed their point differential by 4 games, so you're actually saying they will be 15-17 wins better.

It’s tough to pick that 8th team, but are you really going to ride with Orlando getting that production from Vuc again? I dunno, maybe. The Bulls aren’t better than Atl IMO...

I don’t like the nets.

I’ll pick atl because there aren’t 8 good teams, and the hawks are fun. I also can see 10 more wins given how lil’ curry improved in the second half.