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  #1  
Old 10-30-2018, 05:46 PM
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Dr Luxurious Dr Luxurious is offline
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ultegra chains: do you have to use the quick link?

For CN-HG701 11
Can you still join them with pins or do you have to use the quick links?
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Old 10-30-2018, 05:57 PM
Matthew Matthew is offline
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I've only used pins with no issues.
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:10 PM
rheosibal rheosibal is offline
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Yep, you can use either
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:13 PM
Dave Dave is offline
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If the chain has a one time use special pin, like Campy, that's OK, but otherwise, using an ordinary pin is NOT wise. It's a good way have a chain break apart.
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Old 10-30-2018, 10:11 PM
palincss palincss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Luxurious View Post
For CN-HG701 11
Can you still join them with pins or do you have to use the quick links?
Why ever wouldn't you want to use the quick link?
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  #6  
Old 10-30-2018, 10:16 PM
Louis Louis is offline
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Originally Posted by palincss View Post
Why ever wouldn't you want to use the quick link?
+a lot on this.

There's zero reason not to use a QL, and if a chain doesn't come with one I add one. I've never, ever had a problem with a QL (in my case SRAM Gold QL on Shimano chains)
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Old 10-31-2018, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Luxurious View Post
For CN-HG701 11
Can you still join them with pins or do you have to use the quick links?
They come with a single use pin..use that. Don't push an existing pin out partially and then in, chain will break. If you take the chain apart, for cleaning, don't push the supplied pin out and push a new one in there, using the same plate..find a 'virgin to the pin', plate BUT you can use any quick link..KMC, sram, wipperman/connex.

For info and inna pinch,you can even use a 10s quick link..maybe a bit noisy, but it'll 'get ya home'...
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:13 AM
Clancy Clancy is offline
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I believe the op is asking if the newer Ultegra chain must use the quick link or can be joined with the connecting pin that was used prior to Shimano moving over to quick links. So obviously either may be used.

As to why, without a quick link set of pliers the Shimano quick link is a royal PIA compared to the SRAM version.

The Ultegra chain is my preferred chain, the best bang for the buck. I always used the connecting pin but recently switched to using the KMC missing link. Easier to snap into place and take apart than the Shimano and feels more secure than the SRAM version.

( not indicating that a SRAM QL can be used with Shimano. Must use SRAM w SRAM, Shimano w Shimano, KMC QL with either )
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clancy View Post
I believe the op is asking if the newer Ultegra chain must use the quick link or can be joined with the connecting pin that was used prior to Shimano moving over to quick links. So obviously either may be used.

As to why, without a quick link set of pliers the Shimano quick link is a royal PIA compared to the SRAM version.

The Ultegra chain is my preferred chain, the best bang for the buck. I always used the connecting pin but recently switched to using the KMC missing link. Easier to snap into place and take apart than the Shimano and feels more secure than the SRAM version.

( not indicating that a SRAM QL can be used with Shimano. Must use SRAM w SRAM, Shimano w Shimano, KMC QL with either )


Altho shimano now offers a quick link, the chains still come with a single use pin.

sram, shimano, quick links can be used with any 11s chain just like Wipperman and KMC...
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Old 10-31-2018, 10:02 AM
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The quick link seems odd since the dealer manual shows the chain comes with the standard Shimano breakaway rivet-pin just like they have for many years and includes instructions for joining the chain with the pin and not a quick link.

Is the quick link a separately sold Shimano product? It's really unlike Shimano not to mention the Quick link in the instructions for the chain if it's compatible.

As an aside this seems to be a new 11 speed thing I can't believe the "User Manual" is now an idiot guide that says to oil the chain and see the dealer for installation. I thought the user's guide used to always have the installation instructions.

Me.. I'd continue using the pin like I always have. It's a good system, I find it easier to use than most of the quick links I've tried over the years. I always keep a tool for it in my emergency kit and it's really easy to carry a couple of emergency pins too. Particularly with these newer quick links that are one time use only I don't get it. Back when the quick links could be detached and reattached they seemed to have more value.

I still have a SRAM quick link on my MTB, but that bike is old enough it's running 9-speed.
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Old 10-31-2018, 10:43 AM
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A few points that I don't think saw, i.e. "everything I ever learned about modern derailer chains":

As long as the chain model number hasn't changed since the Shimano quick-link became available, sure the former 11s pin can understatedly be used on that Shimano 11s chain.

Quick links seem to be interchangeable between brands with 9s and 11s chain, but not so with 8 and 10s chains. SRAM 8s and 10s PowerLink connectors for example will not pivot freely on 8s and 10s Shimano chain, and may be difficult to install or remove.

The Shimano pins get better as one accumulates some experience with them.

Shimano pins without a snap-off, tapered extension must be installed with extreme care and/or with more production-oriented tools, since the squared leading end of the pin tends strongly to eat a crescent-shaped piece out of the mating hole in the far-side outer link plate (with resultant loose fit where the "barb" feature is supposed to hold the pin in place).

All of Shimano's parts "instructions" have long since been reduced essentially to CYA verbage. Real instructions must be sourced online (such as the details about asymmetrical installation and having the connecting pin positioned only in the leading hole in the outer link).

I'll add that I've measured the dimensions of various chains, and found that Shimano chain tends to have more aggressive tooth-grabbing dimensions which makes a critical difference in 10s installations. Their 9s chains are also measurably wider inside of the outer plates vs. pin width, which quite noticeably affects front shifting performance in some installations.

Lastly, ordinary pliers can effect the needed "diagonal" decoupling force needed to easily remove even the quick links that snap forcefully in place, but the chain first needs to be bent like the letter "C" for the pliers to positioned on the link as needed. The jaw's teeth catch the diagonally-opposed edges of the outer link to force the sliding motion.
And I've never had or seen a problem with the re-use of a quick link on a chain having the same mileage as the quick link itself.

Editing here, to add that a Shimano chain link with a special pin can be removed by grinding away at the heads of the two pins, taking out half of the outer plate thickness as well. The link then slides out and a quick link can replace it. The grinding is a bit tedious with a Dremel unless the 1" diameter green stone is used (part number 85422 and available online if you Google it or search on Amazon). I've removed good chains from broken frames and made shorter work of the link removal at the bench grinder.

Last edited by dddd; 10-31-2018 at 10:59 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-31-2018, 11:21 AM
benb benb is offline
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The Shimano pins that do not have the break away piece should never be pressed back in.

That's likely not how they are installed at the factory. They're probably a different shape when they start, they likely do a 2 step process where the ends of the pin are not flared to start. The pin gets pressed in by a tool in step 1, then another tool probably presses down again to flare the ends to hold the pin in place.

This method doesn't damage the links... and it's also the process you use to rivet chains together on installation that require a stronger connection than bike chains.

Not getting why you'd ever grind away with a dremel to break the chain either? You can just press the pins out and replace with the quick link unless the shimano quick link is unlike any of the others?
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  #13  
Old 11-05-2018, 08:18 PM
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zank zank is offline
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There are two SKUs each for CN-HG601, 701, and 901 chains. For example, the 701 is available without quick link as ICNHG70111116 and with quick link as ICNHG70111116Q. The quick link version does not have an open outer link. The chain terminates on both ends with an inner link. There is no pin included. The non quick link SKU has the open outer link on one end and an inner link on the other and a pin is included.

To answer the OP's question more directly, you can use a new 11 speed connecting pin just as you would if you were breaking and reconnecting a chain that had a pin originally closing the chain. Just remove the inner link from one end and the pin completely and then use a new 11 speed connecting pin (part Y0AH98030).
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  #14  
Old 11-05-2018, 11:33 PM
dddd dddd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benb View Post
The Shimano pins that do not have the break away piece should never be pressed back in.

That's likely not how they are installed at the factory. They're probably a different shape when they start, they likely do a 2 step process where the ends of the pin are not flared to start. The pin gets pressed in by a tool in step 1, then another tool probably presses down again to flare the ends to hold the pin in place.

This method doesn't damage the links... and it's also the process you use to rivet chains together on installation that require a stronger connection than bike chains.

Not getting why you'd ever grind away with a dremel to break the chain either? You can just press the pins out and replace with the quick link unless the shimano quick link is unlike any of the others?
The special pins that are pre-installed part way through the side plate and without a "guide" tapered snap-off piece are intended for factory installation where parallel "jaws" press the pin straight in, in a more precisely aligned manner than with normal chain tools. No peening is involved. These pins are "special", have the same retention feature as the aftermarket-style special pin, and the connection is strong. But again these are not "regular" pins like in the rest of the links and should not be installed in the usual manner using regular tools.
Many Shimano chains are sold online with these short/blunt connecting pins (in packaging that includes no regular special pin) because they were sold by Shimano for OEM use, to be installed in a factory with special tooling for this purpose. It is highly problematic that these chains are sold to retail customers who have no idea that the use of even shop-grade chain tools can leave the connection link strength severely compromised.

Using a grinder is the only way to remove a link with a special pinn connecting it. You have the option of leaving that link in place and removing a link elsewhere to break and install a quick link, but usually I remove it if I am going to break the chain to install a quick link.

Last edited by dddd; 11-06-2018 at 03:20 AM.
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  #15  
Old 11-06-2018, 10:04 AM
benb benb is offline
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This is an amazing level of confusion.

So many variations and different tools/procedures and seemingly poor documentation.

It's like SRAM got an inside man at Shimano to make this confusing and hopefully have some Pros break Shimano chains on TV.
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