Cancellara Motor Doping

[r_mutt]

Originally Posted by skouri1

This is relevant. But of course (ha!) some will see it as evidence of motor doping...I suspect most people were and are doped, to some degree.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ucis...our-de-france/
Fab-o had a score of zero. Menchov was on the other end.

But I don't think this dude would ride with a motor...
I think that's one step too far. The everyone's doping argument can help them to rationalize drugging themselves, but a motor for a professional athlete? I don't think the ego would let them cross that line...

well, considering that Chris Horner also scored the same "likely to not be doping" as Fabs. I'm not sure how seriously we can take that scoring system.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by KJMUNC

No denying that he was much more consistent throughout his career, but people never want to bring up the fact that FC came of age with Mapei, quite possibly the most overtly doped team in history ('96 1-2-3 at Roubaix....seriously guys?!), then he moved to Fassa Bortolo (the "jet-fuel boys"), then on to CSC and Riis's merry band of dopers, before moving to Leopard Trek with Riis and then Bruyneel.

I have zero evidence that he ever doped and frankly I don't care, but if he rode clean he did so among a virtual murder's row of the biggest doping teams in the last 30yrs.

FC doesn't seem like the Armstrong archetype (win at any costs, i.e., motor in every race), but I could see him using something because he expected Boonen to have one and was caught up in the arms race. Not that it matters or makes it right, but if he really did use something I'd expect there to be more examples in his career. More than likely he just had an extra few watts when Boonen didn't, whether doped or otherwise.

To be clear, I'm not saying that Spartacus didn't dope. I'm reasonably sure he did.

Its more the "stuffing a motor in his bottom bracket outta the blue" bit that makes very little sense in the context of his career.

[KJMUNC]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

To be clear, I'm not saying that Spartacus didn't dope. I'm reasonably sure he did.

Its more the "stuffing a motor in his bottom bracket outta the blue" bit that makes very little sense in the context of his career.

100% agree. He just happened to have some extra oomph at the same moment that Boonen popped.

[CunegoFan]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

I also see no reason for Gaimon to rise to this "challenge." Gaimon has never been the same kind of rider Cancellara is, and you can bet Fabian knows that. So Phil is supposed to suddenly up and fly over to Europe, at his own expense, to race? I doubt Gaimon will go for it, and he shouldn't.

Also it would interrupt Gaimon's busy schedule of proving himself by chasing amateurs' KOMs. If he had been half as dedicated when he was a pro then he might have made something of himself.

[choke]

As I said in another thread, there is well-regarded member across the hall who has worked for years in the bike industry who stated that he knows for sure Fabian used a motor in races. Obviously that's not definitive proof but this person is not prone to hyperbole. But to be fair, I've never been a fan of FC so that may make it easier for me to believe.

As for doping, FC said some interesting things in interview in 2011. https://www.nzz.ch/spritzen_setzen_i...tend-1.9870576

You also received infusions?

Yes, for the first time at the end of 2001. Infusions without a doctor's certificate have been banned since 2004, since then they are no longer an issue for me. Before that, infusions were allowed - and in fact have been used again and again, especially for diseases.

What was inside?

Sugar, water, minerals, vitamins.

[Burnette]

Pro cycling has well earned it's image of cheating, it's a shame that it falls mainly on the riders though. It didn't and doesn't happen in a vacuum. Many have aided profited from their transgressions.

For me it's not an huge jump to believe that motor doping has and is happening. Teams were and are involved in the blood doping and performance enhancing drugs part of it so the motor thing wouldn't be out of character. In fact, if you think about it, how much easier to all involved would it be to just do motor doping? I bet many would prefer that than putting stuff in your body and with motor doping, the whole team gets a black eye.

I like to watch Fabian race and it wouldn't shock me at all if he doped, motor or otherwise. It isn't and never was a clean sport, the how they cheat may change though.

No smoking gun here, just an observation but years ago I remember Bob Roll or Phil noticing how many riders were switching bikes mid race. They questioned the tactic of why riders were changing bikes in the middle of a race so much. Easily justified by surmising that different wheels and frame geo were better for the upcoming terrain, but what a way for motor dopers to hide that bike that's juiced. I went to youtube to find a video and couldn't find Bob or Phil but the first video did mention bike switching and did question it's validity. And they mentioned motor doping in jest. Listen to it through. And this was from way back in 2011.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cDbNJMwxWY

[MattTuck]

Originally Posted by choke

As I said in another thread, there is well-regarded member across the hall who has worked for years in the bike industry who stated that he knows for sure Fabian used a motor in races. Obviously that's not definitive proof but this person is not prone to hyperbole. But to be fair, I've never been a fan of FC so that may make it easier for me to believe.

As for doping, FC said some interesting things in interview in 2011. https://www.nzz.ch/spritzen_setzen_i...tend-1.9870576

I don't spend time over there. Would it be possible to post a link to the relevant thread, I'd like to read what he or she has to say.

Yeah, I mean, he rode for Mapei in 2002 and 2003. It would take some real mental gymnastics to believe he was clean throughout his career.

[cmbicycles]

Phil should accept Fabian's dare, then show up with a hidden motor on his bike... that would solve the kerfuffle between them for sure.

[r_mutt]

Originally Posted by Burnette

No smoking gun here, just an observation but years ago I remember Bob Roll or Phil noticing how many riders were switching bikes mid race. They questioned the tactic of why riders were changing bikes in the middle of a race so much. Easily justified by surmising that different wheels and frame geo were better for the upcoming terrain, but what a way for motor dopers to hide that bike that's juiced. I went to youtube to find a video and couldn't find Bob or Phil but the first video did mention bike switching and did question it's validity. And they mentioned motor doping in jest. Listen to it through. And this was from way back in 2011.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cDbNJMwxWY

One of the races in question Fabs switched bikes 2 times for no apparent reason

https://www.reuters.com/article/idIN...7435820100404\

Originally Posted by CunegoFan

Also it would interrupt Gaimon's busy schedule of proving himself by chasing amateurs' KOMs. If he had been half as dedicated when he was a pro then he might have made something of himself.

he finished 2nd to Nairo Quintana in the Tour de San Luis is 2014. I think you have to work pretty hard to be able to do that.

[CunegoFan]

Originally Posted by r_mutt

he finished 2nd to Nairo Quintana in the Tour de San Luis is 2014. I think you have to work pretty hard to be able to do that.

And the end result: Quintana races the grand tours while Gaimon races the totally pathetic tour, trying to stay relevant by focusing on what times regular Joes with 9-to-5s got up climbs.

[mcteague]

I would not be shocked to find FC had a motor but pretty much assumed he did not. However, the fact that he challenged Gaimon to a race sounds like something a guilty guy would do. No one ever said Phil was anywhere close to Fabian. So, what would that prove?

Tim

[r_mutt]

Originally Posted by CunegoFan

And the end result: Quintana races the grand tours while Gaimon races the totally pathetic tour, trying to stay relevant by focusing on what times regular Joes with 9-to-5s got up climbs.

let's be realistic, you could say that about more that 80% of the peloton.

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by CunegoFan

And the end result: Quintana races the grand tours while Gaimon races the totally pathetic tour, trying to stay relevant by focusing on what times regular Joes with 9-to-5s got up climbs.

To be fair - the KOM's he targets are largely due to their iconic status in US cycling. Some happen to have amateur KOM holders. A great many others are held by former, juiced up pros at the peak of their fuel injected careers. Going for these records, IMO has 2 effects - to raise awareness for the culture of doping in cycling, and to frame the "local fast guy" and the monumental divide that exists between your LFG and even bottom tier Euro Pros. It helps the regular joe connect to what real speed at that level is. Oh and BTW, plenty of those regular Joe's with 9-to-5's that hold bigtime KOMs are doping too.

I get that the way Phil chooses to express himself and his opinions rubs some people the wrong way. However, I also appreciate that there are LOTS of racers that have experienced what he has - working their tails off to be relevant AND clean - but are unable because of the culture of doping. There are a lot of talented riders in that pool, riders that with the right support, and a fair playing field, could be quite relevant in the sport and could help to rebuild it with a clean focus.

I don't honestly think that this is about him wanting to be in the limelight. I think it is him trying to draw attention to what the culture of doping does to domestic and development riders trying to be relevant. It's a perspective that isn't regularly shared. The focus is on the tip of the spear riders - who should have won that day but the effects telegraph much further. I think his perspective (however contriversial and polarizing the delivery) is particularly relevant because it highlights a major problem that new riders must face in the development pipeline. It essentially shows that you need to be a top 1-10 in a generation rider to have a chance at holding a contract with out cheating. I'm not sure that's a message that is good for the future of the sport, or something that we should ignore because of the manner in which it is presented.

IMO - the anti-Phil mentality (I say this in the metaphorical sense not specifically him but the "x person is disgruntled because he/she just wasn't good enough and should just be quite") carries with it an assumption that the game isn't rigged. While there is more awareness of doping/cheating now, it is still FAR from absent or even rare. I don't think it is fair to call anyone who is unsuccessful because they were committed to following the rules in a rigged game "pathetic".

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by CunegoFan

And the end result: Quintana races the grand tours while Gaimon races the totally pathetic tour, trying to stay relevant by focusing on what times regular Joes with 9-to-5s got up climbs.

When he's cherry picking KOMs from Thorfinn Sasquatch, I got no problem with his quest to push that doper dweeb down the ranks a bit.

[Clean39T]

@ CunegoFan - please tone-down the personal attacks and axe-grinding against Phil. While you may not be trolling a forum member, your vitriolic responses aren’t in keeping with the good-natured spirit of this place. And I’d say the same regardless who you were directing it at. That’s just my $0.02 though and I’m not a Mod...