The ongoing hookless rims saga

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by saab2000

My DT-Swiss rims on my gravel wheels are hookless. So far no issues in a few years. But I run them at like 35-38 PSI. Not in love with the concept though given the number of reported incidents and accidents.

for gravel and mtb, i.e. tires 35+ mm or bigger, this is 100% a non issue

[Spdntrxi]

Originally Posted by .RJ

what is the benefit to the rider/consumer, then?

Really you cant think of any ? Assuming done right
weight reduction
aerodynamics
comfort (mainly because you can reduce tire pressure)
strength

[Baron Blubba]

Originally Posted by nmrt

Perhaps the lone voice here. Have been using hookless tubeless rims for my road bike (28 mm) since late 2019. Just like my hooked tubeless rims of yore, never had any issues whatsoever.

Likewise. I've also sold a bazillion bikes with hookless rims and only had one issue, and that was in the very early days of the technology and the user installed a non-compatible tire. I've got 50k+ combined miles on various hookless wheels from Enve, Giant, and Cadex, 100% problem free.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by Spdntrxi

Really you cant think of any ? Assuming done right
weight reduction
aerodynamics
comfort (mainly because you can reduce tire pressure)
strength

None of these are exclusively enabled by going to a hookless rim.

[Turkle]

So, I'm currently running "OTHR" wheels on my new Ritte bike, which seems to split the difference in an interesting way.

These wheels are advertised as having a "mini-hook." They require hookless-compatible tires (no clinchers!) but have additional safety margin. From the website:

"MINI-HOOK: hookless style rimbed and wall strength with additional retention hook for blowoff prevention."

So basically, they are engineered with hookless-style rims but still have a retaining hook as a fail-safe. I hope that the Ritte/OTHR crew won't mind me sharing a snippet from a private conversation:

"We developed these rims specifically out of concern for the lack of quality and standardization across the market. The addition of the miniature hook is an additional safety margin thing, as we're very safety conscious. You'll notice that our wheel options are pretty tight (as are the tire options) because we're vested in making sure things work. IE: these don't blow off."

I'm currently running Vittoria Corsa PRO Control 28s with latex tubes in these wheels. They've been awesome for about 1,000 winter miles. I think this approach is interesting: optimizing the rim profile for the latest tires, but including an extra safety hook. They are super light and ride amazing so far! I appreciate their approach to wheel design (including ratchet hubs and brass nipples) and it's one of the reasons I was excited to buy the bike.

[RoosterCogset]

Originally Posted by weisan

The hooks on those DTs look pretty tiny -- is that representative of how tiny the hooks are with the hooked TL rims out there?

[Spdntrxi]

Originally Posted by .RJ

None of these are exclusively enabled by going to a hookless rim.

whatever

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by Spdntrxi

whatever

are you going to explain, or be dismissive?

Any of the things you mentioned - lighter weight, different profiles for aero benefits, wider profiles for lower tire pressures - can also be achieved with a hooked design on the rims.

There isnt anything specifically that a hookless design, for a road bike with road bike tubeless tires, improves other than manufacturing cost.

What am I missing?

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Spdntrxi

Really you cant think of any ? Assuming done right
weight reduction
aerodynamics
comfort (mainly because you can reduce tire pressure)
strength

Either BS or marginal gains; not worth risking your safety over.

[benb]

Originally Posted by Turkle

So, I'm currently running "OTHR" wheels on my new Ritte bike, which seems to split the difference in an interesting way.

These wheels are advertised as having a "mini-hook." They require hookless-compatible tires (no clinchers!) but have additional safety margin. From the website:



So basically, they are engineered with hookless-style rims but still have a retaining hook as a fail-safe. I hope that the Ritte/OTHR crew won't mind me sharing a snippet from a private conversation:



I'm currently running Vittoria Corsa PRO Control 28s with latex tubes in these wheels. They've been awesome for about 1,000 winter miles. I think this approach is interesting: optimizing the rim profile for the latest tires, but including an extra safety hook. They are super light and ride amazing so far! I appreciate their approach to wheel design (including ratchet hubs and brass nipples) and it's one of the reasons I was excited to buy the bike.

Very interesting stuff, but probably pointless from the point of view of the wheel manufacturers which want to push hookless. OTHR is doing something right though as they are price and mass competitive.

I bet the "mini hook" has increased manufacturing cost just like a full hook. After all it seems this is all about manufacturing really light carbon rims as cheaply as possible. Anything that adds another step to manufacturing is seemingly too expensive.

I think the whole thing comes down to our own personal view of the benefits versus risk.

Too often too many people act like their need for the benefits is the same as someone in contention for a world championship.

There's a major dissonance between a pro riders union saying they think this is too unsafe for the benefits provided and then we have recreational riders or amateur racers saying the benefits are so important the risk is worth it.

Personally I'm skeptical I'd even see any difference going all the way from hooked tubed alloy to hookless tubeless carbon. Maybe I'd feel a difference, but do I think it would actually make any speed difference in the real world, not really.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

Likewise. I've also sold a bazillion bikes with hookless rims and only had one issue,.

I think this thread highlights the importance of being an informed consumer and knowing what you are buying.

My guess is that the vast majority of people who go into a bike shop and buy a complete bike dont really know the technology too well.

Baron, do you tell your customers who you sell hookless wheels explicitly that they have hookless wheels and that they need to adhere to a certain pressure band and type of tire? Seems like when buying a complete bike that bit could get lost.

[benb]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

Baron, do you tell your customers who you sell hookless wheels explicitly that they have hookless wheels and that they need to adhere to a certain pressure band and type of tire? Seems like when buying a complete bike that bit could get lost.

This, and did the one bad situation lead to a rider being injured? I'd not feel good about that.

If you're selling hookless do you need to give those riders a specific list of tire brands/models/sizes that they have to stick to in order to be safe and then they have a very specific pressure range they need to run? To me that is an unacceptable amount of precision to be safe with something that is really just for fun/fitness in the end..

[Spdntrxi]

Originally Posted by .RJ

are you going to explain, or be dismissive?

Any of the things you mentioned - lighter weight, different profiles for aero benefits, wider profiles for lower tire pressures - can also be achieved with a hooked design on the rims.

There isnt anything specifically that a hookless design, for a road bike with road bike tubeless tires, improves other than manufacturing cost.

What am I missing?

Dismissive because you are dismission of the benefits.

I did say 80% of the benefit is for the MFG.. but there is still some small benefit for the end user. It's up to you if they are important to you, but you dont get to decide that for...... me.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by Baron Blubba

Likewise. I've also sold a bazillion bikes with hookless rims and only had one issue, and that was in the very early days of the technology and the user installed a non-compatible tire. I've got 50k+ combined miles on various hookless wheels from Enve, Giant, and Cadex, 100% problem free.

If they were blowing off left and right it wouldnt even be in the market. Likewise, if we didnt have lawyer tabs, limit screws and brake pad screws, 99% of the riders would never know they were missing.

I dont know about the rest of everyone, but I'm just as grouchy about the way this is "sold" to us by the bike companies as I am the safety and compatibility issues created. Its not a benefit to the end user - just like PF30 or flat mount or any of the other things done to either reduce manufacturing costs or kick the can down the road to the component manufacturers.

Bikes are still pretty ****ing amazing these days, even if they're getting it wrong sometimes.

[benb]

Originally Posted by .RJ

If they were blowing off left and right it wouldnt even be in the market. Likewise, if we didnt have lawyer tabs, limit screws and brake pad screws, 99% of the riders would never know they were missing.

Given how high end & expensive these wheels are I'd wonder if the # of riders on them is just too small for their to be enough accidents to end up taking them off the market. It might be the % of riders having issues would be high enough to get CPSC or someone else to take notice if these were super common and were going on millions of bikes, but since we're talking $2000+ wheelsets in a lot of cases the total # of accidents would fly under the radar.