How many spokes should be used when building a wheelset for a specific rider weight?

[msl819]

Part of it for me is if I break a spoke on 32 or 36, chances are I can get home on my own power. If I break a spoke on say a 20 I most likely will be calling for a ride. Not the end of the world but something to consider.

[ripvanrando]

Originally Posted by msl819

Part of it for me is if I break a spoke on 32 or 36, chances are I can get home on my own power. If I break a spoke on say a 20 I most likely will be calling for a ride. Not the end of the world but something to consider.

Good point. The only spoke I broke in memory was on a 600K brevet and the rim rubbed brake pad the last 300Km. I was kicking myself for riding fast wheels but still finished

[NYCfixie]

In 30+ years of cycling on some really crappy roads (NYC, NJ, Boston area) I have only broken 1 spoke on a pair of borrowed wheels on a borrowed bike on a vacation trip in Hawaii.

I guess it depends on how often this really happens and your personal risk tolerance. I do not need ultra-weight-weenie wheels with almost no spokes but I have had slashed tires and mechanicals that could not be fixed road side ruin/stop rides more often than broken spokes.

Originally Posted by msl819

Part of it for me is if I break a spoke on 32 or 36, chances are I can get home on my own power. If I break a spoke on say a 20 I most likely will be calling for a ride. Not the end of the world but something to consider.

Originally Posted by ripvanrando

Good point. The only spoke I broke in memory was on a 600K brevet and the rim rubbed brake pad the last 300Km. I was kicking myself for riding fast wheels but still finished in under 24 hours although the sledding was rough.

[msl819]

Originally Posted by NYCfixie

In 30+ years of cycling on some really crappy roads (NYC, NJ, Boston area) I have only broken 1 spoke on a pair of borrowed wheels on a borrowed bike on a vacation trip in Hawaii.

I guess it depends on how often this really happens and your personal risk tolerance. I do not need ultra-weight-weenie wheels with almost no spokes but I have had slashed tires and mechanicals that could not be fixed road side ruin/stop rides more often than broken spokes.

That’s the greatest correlation there is... borrow something and something is guaranteed to break!

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

..

Admittedly I am a conservative wheel builder..remember the French bridge builder...who s____d one ___k, he wasn’t known as French bridge builder but French ___k _____r...

That is one of the all-time funny stories. Thanks for making me smile at the memory of my dead pal telling it with a hilarious Faux French accent. "Do zey call me Pierre ze bridge-builder? NON! But--------etc. etc. etc.

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by Ralph

I've seen some rims so strong they almost don't need spokes except to connect the hubs. My daily rider 16/21 spoke Campy Zonda's kinda like that Rear wheel wider and thicker than front, etc.

So sure....it depends.....on a lot more than spoke count. I also think build quality (which you can't always see) is a big part. Some folks just build better wheels than other people. Some wheel problems we see on here involving rims and spokes look to me like a build issue many times.

You don't see many wheel problems from work done by our resident wheel builders on here.

Yep, I'm running 7 sets of Campagnolo/Fulcrum wheels on some of my bikes. Shamal, Zonda/Racing 3, and Scirocco/Quattro. Probably around 5000-6000 of my miles on the past two years on those wheels and haven't touched one yet. I've been in the 185-200 lb range unfortunately during this time and ride on rough chipseal. Too many factors go into building wheels to make it easy to say how many spokes are needed.

[bikinchris]

Originally Posted by Kontact

This is the kind of question that should have a good, metric answer. But the answers you get will vary a lot.

- Some conservative builders don't see the rational for any "underbuilt" wheel, regardless of rider weight, and will avoid anything below 32 holes.

- Real world use varies tremendously, and some heavier people ride "light", and some lighter people could manage to break an anvil with their riding style.

- It takes a lot of builds and a lot of miles to establish the sort of real world baseline that could answer your question. Even guys who do nothing but build wheels for a living aren't going to have that kind of database built up about one model rim - especially if all their builds are conservative.

- Quality variations. After watching multiple expertly built DT RR415 rims crack at the eyelet holes for a light rider you start wondering if rim design is a lot more complicated than materials, shape and rim weight. Rims 30 grams lighter hold up much better, and DT is a good company, so what is the X factor? Design, QC? I dunno, but I wouldn't recommend that rim because of my personal experience, despite its specs, and I don't know how universal my experience is.


Sorry for the non-answer, but it may help you understand some of the answers you do get.

^This. Also, how strong the rider is and if they ride hills and stand up a lot. I weigh 280 and can ride a 32 spoke wheel. I have ridden 32 spoke wheels for racing use like that for over 10 years without truing once. I had a set of personal wheels that I sold after 32 years of riding, I also have customers who are 150 pounds and can tear up 36 spoke wheels. I have others that I build 40 spoke wheels so they can go more than 5 years without trouble. So another point is how much maintenance the rider wants to perform.

So there is no easy answer.

[bigbill]

I bought some Zondas in 2008 because they were $300 from Ribble. I bought them with a Chorus 11 group. I figured I'd get a few seasons out of them and ten years later, still true. I'm a big guy but I'm also a diesel, I'm smooth on a bike and watch where I'm going. I cracked a rear Pacenti SL23 V1 but who hasn't. The Pacenti was replaced with an Easton R90 SL and it cracked after 18 months. Old Potato has those hubs and he'll lace them up to some DT511. I rode a set of Chorus/Open Pro wheels for 16 years with no issues. I've got a set of Cosmic Carbones from 1997 that were used in the Giro and I haven't broken those either.

There's no one right answer, but I'll always lean towards more spokes.

[jgarrett]

I’m 230 and drop down to about 215 mid season, and I have good luck with 28/32 wheels. My big question is, can I get away with a 60mm carbon wheel with 24 spokes since the spokes are shorter and the rim itself should be stiffer...we will see


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[mikemowbz]

While I'm completely 'off-the-chart' with regard to the weight ranges you posted as part of your inquiry, I will chime in to state that at 265-275lbs I no longer consider anything less than 36º for RR wheels for road use with a 25-28mm tire (assuming a trad alloy rim 450-500g such as an Archetype or TB14). I run a couple of 32/32º sets, and find that a 32º RR is much more likely, and quicker, to require some maintenance.

I don't ride particularly 'light', admittedly, and am quite happy with 32º for other applications where we're talking smaller diameter wheel, higher volume tire, and/or wider/beefier rim, but experience drives me to a conservative standard here.

I work in a shop, and typically advise 32º minimum RR for road riding to anyone over 175lbs or so looking to build up a trad alloy rim - and suggest to folks of all weights that a few more rather than a few less spokes makes more sense to me than the alternative. I guess I'm with oldpotatoe on this one...

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by jgarrett

I’m 230 and drop down to about 215 mid season, and I have good luck with 28/32 wheels. My big question is, can I get away with a 60mm carbon wheel with 24 spokes since the spokes are shorter and the rim itself should be stiffer...we will see


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The OP mentioned a rim so narrowed down this 'journey' of how many spokes partially but rim, weight, material, structure, etc...certainly goes into this equation. Those Shamals with 16 then 12 spokes? The rim wasn't light, in the 600g + range so yup, heavier rim(and a LOT of 'factory' wheels use heavier rims), you CAN use fewer and maybe thinner, spokes.
Although the whole thinner spoke gig, CX-Rays specifically, makes little sense to me considering they are just ovalized, thin(like a Laser) spokes and cost $3+ per, and 'support' a wheel like any, really thin, spoke. Lots of marketing going on there.

As for the question above? Depends on the rim. 'Shorter spokes' doesn't mean much..the 2 cross will make for a less strong wheel but '400g' or so carbon rims, are pretty heavy in the rim world. If built well, and you 'ride light', I think they could work. Don't use uber thin spokes..something like Sapim Race or DT Comp...

Gonna mention again..4 spokes weigh about 28 grams(CX-Ray/Laser), even less. Removing a 100-150 grams from a wheel, knowing it will be less reliable, makes little sense to me. When it's spinning, nobody knows(coffee shop points). When you ride it, a 24h won't 'feel' better than a 32h one, same rim. Another 'mistake' or 'trend is a marketing driven one..low spoke count wheels BUT much heavier rim, to make it reliable. See this on alot of bikesouttaboxes. Looks keen on the shop floor..ooo, ahh, low spoke count wheels..they take 150 grams off the wheel from spokes but add 250 grams to the rims to make them more reliable. Backwards way to make a lighter wheel..use a lighter rim and enough spokes..is the gig but that doesn't play well with the product managers.

IMHO, of course-'pal'

[jamesdak]

Well, sorta a side dilemma for me to the whole spoke thing is this....

In the past I've gotten several sets of handbuilt wheels at prices in the $500 to $1000 range. Williams Systems 30s, Zen Cyclery Siddartha's, November wheels, Pacenti SL23 laced to my Dura Ace hubs, etc. The only "cheap" set were some Velomine built Open Pros laced to Miche hubs and these were in the "heavy" 1700+ gram range.

Then I got my first set of Campagnolo Zonda's for a little over $300 and they were in the 1550 g range, low spooked (not that I care) and seem to work better than any of my handbuilts. No issues after lots of miles on them, comfortable, stiff, climb well, descend well, etc. Got Fulcrum 3s, same thing. Later picked up some heavier but semi-aero Scirocco's and they work so well at speed and feel lighter than they are in use. So everytime I get a new bike in (collect old steel but ride it all) it's hard to justify replacing worn, problematic rims with handbuilts from anyone when considering price. If I need a specific vintage look then maybe. But in terms of value for the money and performance it's hard to beat what you can get in certain Campagnolo wheels from the UK sites.

[bikinchris]

It needs to be said that these low spoke count wheels have a much higher spoke tension than the old style normal wheels. Total spoke tension must be higher than the load on the wheel. If not, the wheel fails. Catastrophically.

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by bikinchris

It needs to be said that these low spoke count wheels have a much higher spoke tension than the old style normal wheels. Total spoke tension must be higher than the load on the wheel. If not, the wheel fails. Catastrophically.

Hey Chris, are you saying that there is a formula for weight vs. tension or just suggesting that heavier loads will require higher tension in general?

[echelon_john]

Depends. Spoke tension is limited by the rim, and best practice is to build up to, but not exceeding, the rim manufacturers' recommended spoke tension.

That recommended tension number doesn't change on a HED Belgium rim, for example, whether it's 32H or 20h. You wouldn't build a 20H C2 Plus to a higher tension than a 32H C2 Plus. This is true for every example I can think of of a rim that would be built by a custom builder. Proprietary *system* wheels may well use higher spoke tensions, but they're beefing up the rim to make that possible.

Originally Posted by bikinchris

It needs to be said that these low spoke count wheels have a much higher spoke tension than the old style normal wheels. Total spoke tension must be higher than the load on the wheel. If not, the wheel fails. Catastrophically.