How many spokes should be used when building a wheelset for a specific rider weight?

[NYCfixie]

I now that there are so many variables to consider when building wheelsets but what if you needed to build using the following parts:

H Plus Son Archetype rims (700c)
White Industries T11 hubs
Sapim CX-Ray spokes
Brass nipples
- mostly road use (90%), not racing, regular weekday and longer Saturday/Sunday group rides
- very very little gravel/dirt (at best maybe 10%)
- mostly 28mm tire, sometimes a 32mm


How many spokes would you use front/rear for these rider weights (and feel free to update ranges if it would better illustrate your answer):

200-190lbs
190-180lbs
180-170lbs
170-160lbs
160-150lbs

[Kontact]

This is the kind of question that should have a good, metric answer. But the answers you get will vary a lot.

- Some conservative builders don't see the rational for any "underbuilt" wheel, regardless of rider weight, and will avoid anything below 32 holes.

- Real world use varies tremendously, and some heavier people ride "light", and some lighter people could manage to break an anvil with their riding style.

- It takes a lot of builds and a lot of miles to establish the sort of real world baseline that could answer your question. Even guys who do nothing but build wheels for a living aren't going to have that kind of database built up about one model rim - especially if all their builds are conservative.

- Quality variations. After watching multiple expertly built DT RR415 rims crack at the eyelet holes for a light rider you start wondering if rim design is a lot more complicated than materials, shape and rim weight. Rims 30 grams lighter hold up much better, and DT is a good company, so what is the X factor? Design, QC? I dunno, but I wouldn't recommend that rim because of my personal experience, despite its specs, and I don't know how universal my experience is.


Sorry for the non-answer, but it may help you understand some of the answers you do get.

[cmbicycles]

My Archetypes are 32h built on Record hubs with laser spokes front and ND, and Race spokes on the rear with alloy nipples. I'm 190-200# depending on the season but I'm light on wheels. I've got a couple thousand trouble free miles on them and many more anticipated.

I could use lower spoke count wheels, but like kontact mentioned above, I'd rather the wheels be more reliable more than just having them a couple grams lighter.

[NYCfixie]

In general, I have heard...

32/32 for Over 200lbs
28/32 for 190 - 200
24/28 for 175 - 190
20/24 for 160 - 175

And that factory wheels in 16/20, 16/21, 18/24, 20/24 should really only be used by very light riders on race day.

Again, I know it is not easy to give general answers based on the info I mentioned above but I am looking for exactly that kind of information.

Fair or not, less spokes is about lower weight (not that it matters much for a heaver rider) and aero which can help all.

[zambenini]

I would agree with the above weight. Over 200 and go with 32 or 36, then downward from there.

That said, I have been on 28f 32r for years and I am now a big boy at 190 but have weighed between 165-185 on this wheels as much as at my heavier weight (push-ups I swear). Have not needed them trued 1x and I raced road for a few seasons on them and then made them gravel wheels. Rear was in a bad wreck with a car (front did get relaced then) and just got spikes retensioned and it was fine. Overbuilt with no regrets.

Only reason not to get fewer spikes in front is if you will load it up with gear for touring or something.

[ergott]

I'm also in the camp of "it depends".

Factors I think about:
weight
power output
riding style (masher, spinner, etc.)
prior experience (what has/hasn't worked in the past)
road conditions

probably some others I left out, but that gives you an idea of what can be involved.

[saab2000]

^^^


This guy just built me (last year) a set of wheels with Wheels Mfg hubs and Pacenti Forza rims for maximum strength. I went 28/24 with no hesitation at all and I'm currently no lightweight, between the 190 and 200 lb threshold. So far the wheels are fantastic and look really nice in my basement in these cold temps. Stiff, yet compliant.

I have been using 28 hole fronts for years with no ill effects. The front wheel takes about 90% less abuse than a rear wheel, so honestly, I think 24 would be OK with the usual "it depends" caveats.

[Ralph]

I've seen some rims so strong they almost don't need spokes except to connect the hubs. My daily rider 16/21 spoke Campy Zonda's kinda like that Rear wheel wider and thicker than front, etc.

So sure....it depends.....on a lot more than spoke count. I also think build quality (which you can't always see) is a big part. Some folks just build better wheels than other people. Some wheel problems we see on here involving rims and spokes look to me like a build issue many times.

You don't see many wheel problems from work done by our resident wheel builders on here.

[steelbikerider]

I have a set of DA hubs with archetype rims used for training with 28 front and rear. Fronts are Sapim Laser 2x, rear are Laser NDS, Race DS, 3x. I weigh 200 - 205 and haven't touched a spoke since I built them 18 months/ 9000 miles ago. I also have 2 sets of DA hubs laced to Belgium rims with CX-Rays, 28/28 and 24/28, again never touched a spoke in 1000's of miles. Last is a set of A force 33's in 24/28 with CX rays, again no adjustments but only about 1000 miles. Tires are Continental or Michelin 25mm. My only qualifier is that I have always been easy on wheels, spin at 85-95rpm with a smooth pedal stroke and have a power meter that always seems to read too low.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by NYCfixie

I now that there are so many variables to consider when building wheelsets but what if you needed to build using the following parts:

H Plus Son Archetype rims (700c)
White Industries T11 hubs
Sapim CX-Ray spokes
Brass nipples
- mostly road use (90%), not racing, regular weekday and longer Saturday/Sunday group rides
- very very little gravel/dirt (at best maybe 10%)
- mostly 28mm tire, sometimes a 32mm


How many spokes would you use front/rear for these rider weights (and feel free to update ranges if it would better illustrate your answer):

200-190lbs
190-180lbs
180-170lbs
170-160lbs
160-150lbs

Tough to say because big guys can be easy on wheels and little guys can not be but...I wouldn’t use cxray on RH rear for anybody you mentioned(I’d use Race), BUT 170lbs U.P. 32h f/r, 150-170...28/32...remember 4 spokes weigh about 25 grams so a 20/24 is only 125 grams lighter than 32/32...on a 75,000 or so gram ‘package’..

Admittedly I am a conservative wheel builder..remember the French bridge builder...who s____d one ___k, he wasn’t known as French bridge builder but French ___k _____r...

[msl819]

Originally Posted by steelbikerider

I have a set of DA hubs with archetype rims used for training with 28 front and rear. Fronts are Sapim Laser 2x, rear are Laser NDS, Race DS, 3x. I weigh 200 - 205 and haven't touched a spoke since I built them 18 months/ 9000 miles ago. I also have 2 sets of DA hubs laced to Belgium rims with CX-Rays, 28/28 and 24/28, again never touched a spoke in 1000's of miles. Last is a set of A force 33's in 24/28 with CX rays, again no adjustments but only about 1000 miles. Tires are Continental or Michelin 25mm. My only qualifier is that I have always been easy on wheels, spin at 85-95rpm with a smooth pedal stroke and have a power meter that always seems to read too low.

^^^thats funny... I have been 200 (210-220)plus all of my riding life and have mostly been on 32 hole wheelsets with little problem outside of norm. In my mind it has much more to do with the road surface. When they started drilling and fracking around here and the truck tore up the roads, hitting potholes and other stuff got harder to avoid and wheels needed more attention, but so did my 135 lb riding buddies. I have a buddy who rides around 275, has quads like a power lifter, and rides 28 hole wheelset with little issue. Having an overbuilt set has always been more appealing to me, but that’s just my opinion.

[R3awak3n]

I think it depends on the rims used and what kind of spokes (but mainly rims).

IMO of course, unless you are touring, you are fine with 28 spoke wheels up to 250 lbs, maybe even more but I would say over 250 32 will be more reliable (again depending on the rims used).

I had a set of enve 45s, 20 front and 24 rear, I am over 200 and never had a single problem with them being true. At the same time I have had 32 h wheels that have come out of true. Oh who builds them also matters of course.

THis is one of those topics that I think people on PL are VERY conservative about.

[weisan]

I started building my own wheels about two years ago. I have used a variety of rims for my builds: Pacenti, Velocity, H Plus Son, DT Swiss, Kinlin, Mavic etc.
But one thing that is pretty constant is I tend to stick to 32h and 28h spoke count.

I am the kind of rider who wants to avoid wheel failure at all cost, especially when I am out riding. To me, there's nothing more frustrating than a ride cut short because of equipment failure especially the ones that are completely avoidable. I don't mind so much riding on "broken" frames because the ones that I ride on are actually far from any impending catastrophic failure, I am the one making that call of course.

I have built about 20-25 sets of wheels so far. None of them have needed any adjustment since I took them off the truing stand despite quite a few went through some really hard use like loaded touring, downhill MTB, gravel riding etc. I honestly consider my skill/experience as a wheel builder still very elementary and average but I think I got away with it largely because of choosing a higher spoke count for my builds.

I have weighed as much as 170 pounds, but recently has dropped to 152 pounds. Even then, I am still riding on my 32h wheels. I don't care.

[ripvanrando]

I did Paris Brest Paris on 21R/18F. I train on 20R/18F. I rode cross country on 28R/20F (xray spokes). I do have a set of overkill 32R/28F 650B wheels built by an Amateur (xray spokes, too).

Broke one spoke in maybe 45,000 miles.

But I like to live dangerous....am also light on the saddle despite 185-200 lbs range of body weight.

[NYCfixie]

This is what is so interesting to me. I have probably only ridden 36/36 and 32/32 spoke wheels my entire life up until about 5 years ago. Since then I have been on various low spoke count factory wheels and never had a problem but I did not keep any of them that long (I get bored of stuff easily).

The only time I can remember breaking a spoke was on a Backroads trip in Hawaii a few years ago. It was on one of their decently maintained Ti bikes with 32/32 wheels. I was lugging up a mountain (really a volcano) and heard the "ping sound". Pulled over, noticed the broken spoke on the rear wheel, called and waited for them to come swap the wheel, and no more trouble the rest of the trip.

I am not 200lbs but not a lightweight either and the only time I have ever broken a spoke was on a borrowed 32/32 wheelset. YMMV.