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  #31  
Old 01-11-2018, 10:19 AM
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tctyres tctyres is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by binxnyrwarrsoul View Post
This. There is a stigma to mental issues that not only seems to not be going away, but seems to be increasing. I have a niece (wife's side) who has been hospitalized twice, once not of her own free will as it was deemed she was a danger to herself, and there is this cloak of silence that shrouds the entire situation by her family, like it'll make THEM look bad. It's not about them. This is a college student who is a beautiful girl, extremely intelligent and creative, excels at sports etc etc. You want to scream when you hear oh what is their problem, they have the world by the balls, popular, gorgeous etc., yeah well obviously they didn't feel that way about themselves, and with no treatment it tends to end badly.

Part of $200M would do better if it went to treatment facilities, docs etc.. Just my opinion.

I think most of us have been closer than we'd like to be, for whatever reason. Something as seemingly benign as losing a job, seems like it just sucks but for some not having a purpose can be that trigger. The human mind is more complicated than can be fathomed.
I think you've touched on a number of things. I know a psychiatry MD very well. We've talked a lot on a number of issues ... from the yahoo that went down the bike lane in NY last year to suicide off the bridge. The problem, generally, is identifying when people are expressing/manifesting symptoms. At that point, they need professional care. It's getting them into see the MDs that's the problem. The MDs know what to do. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not express symptoms or have isolated themselves. The netting is for those people who aren't expressing symptoms or have isolated themselves. They don't reach out for help or someone in their social fabric hasn't gotten involved.
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  #32  
Old 01-11-2018, 10:43 AM
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Very sorry to hear about this Keith as well as the others who have been touched by suicide. I've been lucky I guess in that it's not something that has touched me closely in my life. Reading about others experiences here though does help me understand the topic a little better from a personal stand point.






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  #33  
Old 01-11-2018, 10:47 AM
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There are lots of victims in a suicide, and each path to some kind of healing will be different, but definitely long and arduous. I served in a leadership position in my church for some years a while back, and one member lost her husband, the father of four kids, to suicide. I read several books to try to understand how to help. One was written by a woman who lost her husband and I'll always remember her remarking how people would avoid discussing or bringing up the subject months or years later. We don't know what to say, we're afraid to bring up tender or difficult subjects; but, she said it was always the elephant in the room, and silence regarding her loss was even more difficult than talking about it.
Talk to them, talk about the child lost, good times, good memories. Sometimes they want to talk, sometimes they don't; but it's always present in their heart.
Death, by disease, accident or old age, is almost always tempered by the passage of a year or two. Loss by suicide plays by completely different rules.
My condolences to you and your friends.
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  #34  
Old 01-11-2018, 11:39 AM
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There are lots of victims in a suicide, and each path to some kind of healing will be different, but definitely long and arduous. I served in a leadership position in my church for some years a while back, and one member lost her husband, the father of four kids, to suicide. I read several books to try to understand how to help. One was written by a woman who lost her husband and I'll always remember her remarking how people would avoid discussing or bringing up the subject months or years later. We don't know what to say, we're afraid to bring up tender or difficult subjects; but, she said it was always the elephant in the room, and silence regarding her loss was even more difficult than talking about it.
Talk to them, talk about the child lost, good times, good memories. Sometimes they want to talk, sometimes they don't; but it's always present in their heart.
Death, by disease, accident or old age, is almost always tempered by the passage of a year or two. Loss by suicide plays by completely different rules.
My condolences to you and your friends.
Wise words - thank you.


dave
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  #35  
Old 01-11-2018, 11:48 AM
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I wanted to apologize to anyone that I might have offended or caused them to recall any bad memories related to this subject. I know there are some out there that did not appreciate me posting on this issue.

I gave serious consideration to this before posting my message, but obviously decided to do so. I am grateful for the Paceline community and have learned many things here, both about cycling and other areas as well. I have appreciated the comments in this discussion and they have caused me to reflect upon my own feelings as well as how I might be able to help my friends.

Matter of fact, I spent several hours last night communicating with my friend who lost his parents. At the end, he expressed his heartfelt thanks for me reaching out to him. This might not have happened if I had not posted on this subject.

To anyone who is personally struggling with this issue or depression, please know that there are people who care about you and there are many resources available, and people to help. I would be happy to share some of the resources I found if anyone is interested.

Thank you all.
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  #36  
Old 01-11-2018, 11:57 AM
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Condolences, Keith, and to all affected by suicide.

Depression and other mental health issues are rampant and pervasive in all walks of life. We as a society still, more often than not, ostracize people with mental illness and over-value things that compound feelings of isolation -- material wealth; looks; competition; power; individual success over community; and all the 'round the clock fakery, venom and immediacy that goes along with social medial.

There is an epidemic of suicide (as well as over-doses). Organic disorders have always existed and will always exist. We need earlier diagnosis and treatment. But we also we to be nicer to each other.

Last edited by Fishbike; 01-12-2018 at 06:47 AM.
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  #37  
Old 01-11-2018, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Fishbike View Post
...
Depression and other mental issue issues are rampant and pervasive in all walks of life.
...
In my reading up on this issue, suicide is the third leading cause of death among our youth ages 12 to 19. This is behind accidental death and homicide, and one in nine of this age group's deaths are from suicide.
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  #38  
Old 01-11-2018, 04:03 PM
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Keith, sorry for your friends and family's loss.
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  #39  
Old 01-11-2018, 08:16 PM
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Tough stuff...hang in there Keith.

I had a close friend from college attempt to take her own life (sleeping pills) and fortunately her Mother found her before it was too late. She had it all going for herself...intelligence, personality, job, appearance, etc. but it apparently wasn’t enough for her.

I happened to call my friend one evening for a casual chat and her Mother answered as usual. She still lived at home at the time, and her Mother told me that my friend wasn’t home and that she hadn’t been feeling well. She then asked if I would have any time to stop to visit her at a particular hospital, to which I replied “of course”. I assumed a bad flu, pneumonia...not a visit to a psychiatric ward as I found out when I inquired of her room at the hospital front desk. I later found out that her Mother was reaching out to all of her friends and making the same request. She couldn’t however bring up the subject of the suicide attempt as she couldn’t comprehend the fact that her daughter would do such a thing.

I went the next day and visited her at the hospital and I was completely unprepared for the news...dumbfounded actually, as I couldn’t process the fact that she had attempted suicide a little more than a week ago. The first few minutes in talking with her were so sad, but sadness was soon overcome by relief and happiness because she was finally able to share her story. She was truly taken aback by the outpouring of love from her friends and family. It was always there but she said that until she started recovery, she was unable to see it.

That was about 35 years ago and life has been good to her. Through counseling she has been able to deal with her emotional issues and with her family and personal relationships. Although she moved from the area long ago, I always look forward to her cards and notes and I am thinking kind thoughts about her as I type this.
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  #40  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:13 AM
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Ti Designs Ti Designs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by binxnyrwarrsoul View Post
This. There is a stigma to mental issues that not only seems to not be going away, but seems to be increasing. I have a niece (wife's side) who has been hospitalized twice, once not of her own free will as it was deemed she was a danger to herself, and there is this cloak of silence that shrouds the entire situation by her family, like it'll make THEM look bad.
If you say that you've considered suicide a truck full of guys in white suits will show up at your house. That's pretty much what it comes down to, and why the act is always such a shock to most. The lack of understanding of that decision making process (which clearly shows in building nets under bridges) is a large part of the problem.


The guys in the white coats don't know where I live, so...

I don't think a day has gone by since I was in grade school that I haven't thought about when my life should end. It's not an irrational decision, it's just the opposite. There is a problem that I've spent my life looking for solutions or work-arounds, it's been endless frustration and I know it doesn't go away as long as I'm alive. That's one side of the equation. On the other side there is the future, which I can't predict. Without both sides I can't make that decision, so life goes on...

The more important question is about how that thought process started. I have a learning disability, I can't memorize anything. Our education system is all about memorization, so I struggled in school in everything except math. Math has always come easily to me, but even that had it's down sides. My teachers and parents couldn't understand who a child could be so good in math and so bad in other subjects. They decided I wasn't trying hard enough... Things went from bad to worse when school became 8 classes in different rooms. I can't navigate, that sequence of rights and lefts doesn't work for me, so getting to the next class wasn't something I could do. School became 8 hour long panic attacks. At one point one of my teachers noticed I was bleeding from my fingernails (from squeezing the desk in fear) so they sent me to the nurse. I tried to explain to the nurse that I'll never be able to find my next class. Her response was "you'll learn", just like everybody else. It was at that point when I realized that I would rather be anyone else, even the kid I hated the most, than be myself. That self hate grew as I became more aware of what other kids could do that I couldn't.

I may be unusual, but I'm not a unique case - far from it. There are all sorts of unsolvable problems that people have. I think the bigger problem is how society deals with them, or in many cases refuses to deal with them. At this point most of my frustration isn't with my problem, it's with the lack of understanding of the problem. I am expected to run the register at my shop, it's sequence based, I can't do it. I've told them this a dozen times. Their response is the same response I've gotten my whole life, either "you're not trying" or "you'll learn". This never ends. I was talking to a friend with RA, and his frustration is exactly the same thing - people can't see an obvious problem, they assume there isn't one.

If you're looking for signs in a person, don't look for single events. I went from bike racer to cripple in a second, my divorce left me with a house but not enough money to heat it or buy food - both of those may have cause depression, but that's about it. If my theory about suicide it correct, if it's a long term rational decision about a problem that can't be solved, you're looking for long term frustration to the point of destructive behavior.

Lastly, suicides and mass shootings are two sides of the same coin. If you would rather be in anyone else's shoes, it's self hate. The solution is suicide. If you defend who you are and blame everybody else it becomes hatred of society. That's where the real danger is.
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  #41  
Old 01-12-2018, 11:03 AM
OperaLover OperaLover is offline
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Depression. I've been there, I am there, but thankfully I am working to leave it behind me. Medication and counseling have helped, but it's always there. Get help, reach out. You are never as alone as you think you are.
We need to take depression and other mental illness out of shadows; this is no different than any other life threatening disease. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it's physical. It's also hereditary and I see that looking back on my father, my uncle and my grandmother.

I put off treatment because I thought the meds would make me loopy. On the contrary they gave me perspective and focus on what is important in life. My marriage suffered as a result of my depression. I'm still working to hold that together for the sake of my wife and three kids.

There's a blind corner on my bike commute. No street lights and traffic in the opposite direction is coming downhill. So many nights I thought about closing my eyes and swinging my bike into that oncoming lane and . . .

My youngest child saved me. One night as I was tucking him in he said to me out of the blue, " Dad, I don't want you to die." WOW! that was my wake up. I promised him I was not going to die any time soon and began treatment.

I'm still here and I pick up myself up everyday and move forward. One day at a time and sometimes one breath at a time.

Thank you listening, sharing helps tremendously.
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  #42  
Old 01-12-2018, 11:12 AM
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AngryScientist AngryScientist is offline
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Originally Posted by OperaLover View Post

My youngest child saved me. One night as I was tucking him in he said to me out of the blue, " Dad, I don't want you to die." WOW! that was my wake up. I promised him I was not going to die any time soon and began treatment.

I'm still here and I pick up myself up everyday and move forward. One day at a time and sometimes one breath at a time.

Thank you listening, sharing helps tremendously.
that's a very touching story Opera. it also illustrates the beauty of youthful innocence. they just say what's on their mind. it's awesome. thanks for sharing that.
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  #43  
Old 01-12-2018, 11:34 AM
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Saint Vitus Saint Vitus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti Designs View Post
If you say that you've considered suicide a truck full of guys in white suits will show up at your house. That's pretty much what it comes down to, and why the act is always such a shock to most. The lack of understanding of that decision making process (which clearly shows in building nets under bridges) is a large part of the problem.


The guys in the white coats don't know where I live, so...

I don't think a day has gone by since I was in grade school that I haven't thought about when my life should end. It's not an irrational decision, it's just the opposite. There is a problem that I've spent my life looking for solutions or work-arounds, it's been endless frustration and I know it doesn't go away as long as I'm alive. That's one side of the equation. On the other side there is the future, which I can't predict. Without both sides I can't make that decision, so life goes on...

The more important question is about how that thought process started. I have a learning disability, I can't memorize anything. Our education system is all about memorization, so I struggled in school in everything except math. Math has always come easily to me, but even that had it's down sides. My teachers and parents couldn't understand who a child could be so good in math and so bad in other subjects. They decided I wasn't trying hard enough... Things went from bad to worse when school became 8 classes in different rooms. I can't navigate, that sequence of rights and lefts doesn't work for me, so getting to the next class wasn't something I could do. School became 8 hour long panic attacks. At one point one of my teachers noticed I was bleeding from my fingernails (from squeezing the desk in fear) so they sent me to the nurse. I tried to explain to the nurse that I'll never be able to find my next class. Her response was "you'll learn", just like everybody else. It was at that point when I realized that I would rather be anyone else, even the kid I hated the most, than be myself. That self hate grew as I became more aware of what other kids could do that I couldn't.

I may be unusual, but I'm not a unique case - far from it. There are all sorts of unsolvable problems that people have. I think the bigger problem is how society deals with them, or in many cases refuses to deal with them. At this point most of my frustration isn't with my problem, it's with the lack of understanding of the problem. I am expected to run the register at my shop, it's sequence based, I can't do it. I've told them this a dozen times. Their response is the same response I've gotten my whole life, either "you're not trying" or "you'll learn". This never ends. I was talking to a friend with RA, and his frustration is exactly the same thing - people can't see an obvious problem, they assume there isn't one.

If you're looking for signs in a person, don't look for single events. I went from bike racer to cripple in a second, my divorce left me with a house but not enough money to heat it or buy food - both of those may have cause depression, but that's about it. If my theory about suicide it correct, if it's a long term rational decision about a problem that can't be solved, you're looking for long term frustration to the point of destructive behavior.
Thank you for sharing a painful wound. This might help me to understand my teenage son and his struggles with school better.

Also to the folks that can't bear to read any of this, remember that conversation and connection are the most important aspects of life. Having considered suicide personally I suggest we embrace a frank discussion of the matter and not shy away from it. My son was the only reason I kept going forward. From there I sought treatment and then began riding my bike more and more. Life has improved from those dim times.

And finally, Keith, my sincere condolences.
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  #44  
Old 01-12-2018, 11:39 AM
bking bking is offline
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Thanks for sharing Ti, Opera. My sister suffers from depression, mental illness and tried suicide some years ago. She's the smartest, wisest and most fun to be with person in our family. My son, 32 years old, struggles with emotional issues that to this day have never been satisfactorily diagnosed, to him least of all. He functions well, good job, owns his own home, but may be alone his whole life as socially he struggles so. One possibility suggested is some sort of autism, seems to cover a very broad spectrum of people. The other day I ran across this animated video trying to help us see through the eyes of someone who struggles with a form of autism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JdCY-cdgkI

To most of us, people who struggle with many of these issues look normal, talk normal, seem like anyone else. "You just need to pull your self together! Try harder!"
Perhaps someday, with all the video/reality games and technology we have, we'll all be able to "see better" what others are dealing with, and figure out how to be more helpful.
All the best.
Bruce
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  #45  
Old 01-12-2018, 12:23 PM
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That's horrible I'm so sorry.
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