Titanium on MTBs. All created equal ?

[Dave Ferris]

A short history and what I'm considering -- I currently own a '14 Potts 29er with a 100mm Fox fork. Love the bike but after almost 3.5 years on it, I'm thinking of going 650B. I'm at 5' 9'' and a half inches. After recently demoing an inexpensive Marin 650B on my trail , which has a 2000' climb in 3 miles, I just feel the 650 all around would be a better bike for me.

In addition to Steve's bike, I love the looks of bikes by Jim Kish, Eriksen, SyCip, 333 fab and Carl Strong. And lastly, who could not love the visual aspect of the Fireflys !

But just curious as to why their basic Butted Ti frame cost is significantly higher then the aforementioned builders ? I've been told Titanium is all the same grade level -- at least that these longtime and popular custom builders use.

I don't consider myself even a fraction as "bike knowledgeable" as the majority on here as I'm mainly a runner that does cross training on bikes. But I have been riding a long time and do know what appeals to me, both visually and ride quality.

I could be happy with any of those builders but again, I am curious about the Firefly and whether their Mtn. bikes have a distinctly different ride feel quality to them.

[buddybikes]

this is worth reading:https://fireflybicycles.com/about/technology

Reality is all these frames will do the same thing if the geometry is right for your needs.

[Hilltopperny]

The expense may be because of the amount of time that goes into each frame. I ordered a no22 and I saw there process first hand. A lot goes into the finish and details. I have a bunch of lynskey bikes as well and they ride great, but if I wanted to have one with the level of craftsmanship as the no22 it would cost around the same. I believe the majority of price descrepancy is due to the extra hours that go into the frame and whatever the cost to do business in the area they are building is.

[NYCfixie]

I have owned several Lynskeys and liked them all. They keep their costs at a certain price point by not using USA Ti and making stock bikes in a production environment. That does not mean they are bad, that means they are made generic to fit a wide range of people and production building keeps costs down. If you look thorough their offerings you notice that the bikes get more expensive as the tubes are shaped more or are butted. As an example, Compare the R150 (straight gauge round tube ti) to the R275 (triple butted, tapered head tube, electronic ready) and you will realize that even production Ti frames prices carry widely due to what features they have and what finishing has been done. Great value for what you pay.

Next I would mention Seven (full disclosure - I own one). Every frame is custom but built in a highly refined production process so they can offer an amazing value at a different price point. All USA sourced Ti. You can get straight gauge Ti (but unlike Lynskey they will pick tube sizes based on you weight and riding style), you can get butted Ti (unlike Lynskey they butt tubes for the individual rider based on weight and riding style after they have chosen tubes based on your weight and riding style). Again, an amazing value at this price point.

And then FireFly. Just after I got to Boston I toured the shop and met Kevin, Jamie, and Tyler (full disclosure - I did not want to wait a year and because it was my first custom I chose the safe choice which to me was Seven but I am sure FireFly would have built me something amazing). FF builds custom and with that you get an amazing amount of customer service/contact (communication, photos, hand holding, etc.). All USA sourced Ti. They also chose tubes based on rider needs and custom butt each tube like Seven. They take it up a notch (apologies to Emeril) if you look at their work. They even butt the seat tube and leave extra material where the bottle bolts are located (see pic below). Compare there high level dropouts to Seven and then compare them to Lynskey (you get what you pay for). They offer an amazing amount of finish options and basically you can get anything you want made. Again, an amazing amount of value at this price point.


I can't speak to any other Ti builder because I am not familiar with them but Ti is an amazing material and builders can do very cool things with it which is why so many people build with it, offer so many different options, and many different price points.

Originally Posted by Hilltopperny

The expense may be because of the amount of time that goes into each frame. I ordered a no22 and I saw there process first hand. A lot goes into the finish and details. I have a bunch of lynskey bikes as well and they ride great, but if I wanted to have one with the level of craftsmanship as the no22 it would cost around the same. I believe the majority of price descrepancy is due to the extra hours that go into the frame and whatever the cost to do business in the area they are building is.

[Mikej]

All Ti is not equal. You want US sourced Ti or Sandvik. I know the cost of some of the US tubes and that is where the jump in price comes in. Eriksen, Built, Kish, Potts, Moots, Seven, Engin, FF all use higher grade 9 (correct me if I'm wrong?) ti. FF are more expensive because they can. They do seem to offer more features, and I would pay it if it weren't for the 1.5 year wait. Honestly, any of those builders are awesome and can do what you want. I personally would shy away from a butted downtube on an mtb (rocks). Top tube, (shifter dings) - Builts are looking good.

[zambenini]

Tubing technicalities aside, once you're going for a builder's ti ride, vs., say, a production deal like Kona or Lynskey, I think geo and design philosophy will probably matter most.

Adam Sklar just started doing ti and everything else he has done is killer. belongs in your list, even though he's new at ti. I think his popularity on the R*davist probably means a long queue, tho.

[sandyrs]

Originally Posted by Mikej

All Ti is not equal. You want US sourced Ti or Sandvik. I know the cost of some of the US tubes and that is where the jump in price comes in. Eriksen, Built, Kish, Potts, Moots, Seven, Engin, FF all use higher grade 9 (correct me if I'm wrong?) ti. FF are more expensive because they can. They do seem to offer more features, and I would pay it if it weren't for the 1.5 year wait. Honestly, any of those builders are awesome and can do what you want. I personally would shy away from a butted downtube on an mtb (rocks). Top tube, (shifter dings) - Builts are looking good.

Grade 9 is the same thing as 3/2.5. It just describes the composition of the alloy and aside from the occasional 6/4 it's what essentially every ti frame is made of.

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by Mikej

All Ti is not equal. You want US sourced Ti or Sandvik.

Why?

[Mikej]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

Why?

I’m a big fan of the American product.

[Mikej]

Originally Posted by sandyrs

Grade 9 is the same thing as 3/2.5. It just describes the composition of the alloy and aside from the occasional 6/4 it's what essentially every ti frame is made of.

Correct, that’s what you want.

[jtakeda]

Without adding much to the convo DIBS! hit me up if you want to sell the Potts!!

[jtakeda]

On a more helpful note I think all the people you mentioned and have been mentioned will make an amazing bike.

I suppose “future proofing” would be one if the things to consider if going with a new custom ti bike

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by Mikej

I’m a big fan of the American product.

I'm all in favor of keeping it local, but are there actual metallurgical reasons? Is there a difference between 3/2.5 Ti from the USA and 3/2.5 from international sources?

[Mikej]

[QUOTE=mhespenheide;2297199]I'm all in favor of keeping it local, but are there actual metallurgical reasons? Is there a difference between 3/2.5 Ti from the USA and 3/2.5 from international sources?[/QUOTE

Just my opinion, since China makes substandard steel and everything else we have tested. I work in a manufacturing facility that uses a multitude of ferrous and nonferrous alloys, of which I test for engineering. We don’t use Chinese castings or import their raw materials due to constant inferior product that is vastly inconsistent, most likely due to impurities from laid back recycling and processing. Just my opinion from my experience- I’m assuming that since titanium tubing is much more process dependent than carbon steel that Chinese would have troubles. You may actually utilize Chinese 6-4 tubes in landing gear and have a mil- spec for f-33’s for all I know, it’s just my opinion.

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

I'm all in favor of keeping it local, but are there actual metallurgical reasons? Is there a difference between 3/2.5 Ti from the USA and 3/2.5 from international sources?

The +/- .