Serotta Design Studio is live

[cmbicycles]

Originally Posted by echelon_john

I think they should market a model called TTORTTO.

That makes me think of turtle, which probably would be a bad name for a bike... Although arguably better than some.

[54ny77]

I see what you did there.

How about:
Reef It
Coco Runs
End Leg
Ice Vimi
Seat Rot

Originally Posted by echelon_john

I think they should market a model called TTORTTO.

[Tonger]

Originally Posted by tuscanyswe

I dont understand why a lot of ppl are so eager to cast their judgment all ready.
I dont want to say anything at this point. Id much rather see if they will turn out some super nice riding or looking bikes. Read a few reports and then try to figure out what i think.

Okay so its expensive. So are a lot of other stuff in this world.

^This^

I don't post much but am rather surprised by the degree of derision and judgement when nobody has even ridden any of the new SDS offerings in the wild. I hope the new bicycles kick ass and personally I like having more great options to choose from. What I also know is that there are a lot of people, myself included, who have benefited from Ben sponsoring his forum. Rather than turn the Serotta Forum archives over to the folks running The Paceline, he could have simply turned off the lights. If so, this place wouldn't have the sense of permanence that it does. Ironically, some of the folks that are the most vociferous critics of SDS have no problem personally benefiting from what used to be Ben's forum.

I'm personally glad that SDS has come back - there's too much history for them to be extinct. I am also thankful for the folks that learned their craft at Serotta (Bedford, Kirk, Wages) and some of the giants of the old forum like Dave T and Pete McKeon (he is missed). These guys and Ben know a ton about bikes and carry themselves like gentlemen. On the other hand, if someone isn't interested in SDS, that's ok too. My suggestion is just to have a little appreciation for Ben's prior forum sponsorship and be objectively critical with a little bit more class...

[rounder]

I think they should make a model called Serotta.

I know that Ben was required to give up the rights to the bike name as part of the settlement. I do not know if there was a time limit associated with that. If there was not, maybe he would be able to buy back the bike name rights. At this point, I would imagine that the bike name Serotta would not have much value to anyone other than Ben.

About 30 years ago when I was trying to pick a cool bike, I got an NHX Serotta because, to me, it was the prettiest bike I ever saw and rode great. Years later, I bought a CIII that was also pretty and rode great.

Anyway, I believe in the (OLD) Serotta way and wish Ben and Co. a lot of success with the new endeavor.

[dddd]

Originally Posted by simonov

I'm confused why they'd want to have a set list of stock sizes, but then also have dimensions or angles that need to be determined following the consultation. Wouldn't it just be easier to design the geo for each customer rather than have a conversation about which size to start with before changes are made to make it fit? Or at least similar enough effort?

I've touched on this in a couple of other recent threads. Basically, there is some complexity in deciding on frame size when both frame angles affect not only fit, but affect how the bike handles with a chosen stem length.

So I can see much value in the consultation, as obviously someone like Ben understands these things far better than the average rider.

Now, with there being a good number of stock sizes, so with small-increment size differences, and with today's frame designs mostly featuring sloping top tubes, there really should be far fewer riders who really benefit from the full-custom treatment. But getting the rider properly fitted to the right-sized frame is still a very important consideration and a worthy endeavor.

All this is not to say that some riders won't be better off on a custom-built rig, such as with outlying size/weight/strength variables or specific functional attributes, but as I said today's compact frame designs can accommodate many more riders including those with proportionally shorter legs.

I was recently asked to build up an Argon-18 frameset which was a compact frame and with adjustable headtube length, literally the spacing between the two headset bearings was adjustable. I have to think that such a frame could be offered in a relatively small number of sizes and still fit a great majority of riders quite well.

[oldpotatoe]

Tough crowd, hope Ben and crew read this stuff...and not just concentrate on selling the 'best bike in the world for everybody...period'.

Lots of pretty raw nerves still out there(mine included from Vecchio's, and as a bike shop owner, I wasn't alone) when it came to Serotta. For the record, I know something about dealing with Serotta, ProPeloton(I was wrench) was the number one Serotta dealer in the world, in the mid 90s. BUT the company and also Ben himself, was often pretty tough to deal with(same with previous shop, Morgul-Bismark..owned by Davis and Ron)...'arrogance', comes to mind. And not recognizing my little bike shop(s), were their customers as much as the guy riding the bike.

Out.

[November Dave]

Originally Posted by charliedid

How so?

To hit that price point you are buying open mold stuff and cheap components, which I don't think Ben Serotta has any interest in doing. So there's that.

USAC membership is somewhere around 60,000, so there's your audience there. Some big slice has no interest in a $2500 bike. Big slices get team deals and aren't in your market. Big slices keep their bikes for 3/4/5/6 years - and probably more in the low cost part of the segment. So let's just say that it's possible to get 5% marketshare of licensed bike racers, and then divide that by 4 because they're going to be in the market for a new bike roughly every 4 years. So you're selling 750 bikes a year. Among 6 or 8 sizes. You can't hit minimum order quantities like that, and there's no way you're getting good OEM pricing when you divide that up into 3 or 4 parts specs. And if you think you're getting away with one parts spec, nope.

I simply don't think there's any way you're landing a desirable, race ready bike in those volumes for a penny less than $1500. Reaching the people who are in this audience and convincing them that "less expensive" and "just as good" or at least "won't have people laughing at you and turning up their noses" is expensive as get out.

Money is cheap these days but it ain't free. OEMs generally aren't AT ALL generous with terms (more like pay up front at time of order) and then wait 3 months for production and 1 month for shipping. Your bank account might start to go non-negative from sales 8 months after you drained it to pay for product.

Selling and shipping and servicing and all of that stuff for 750 bikes to racers is not a one man job. Just answering the "dudebrah, gimme some stuff and I'll rep your company I'm so legit" emails is a full time job. Boxes cost a lot of money, shipping costs a lot of money, insurance costs a fortune, facilities cost a lot. Get the size mix wrong and you're pwned. Market shifts to a different flavor and you're pwned.

The number of people who've tried some variant of this (including me) is huge. And even several years ago when there were more left in the game, $2500 price points were rare as hen's teeth.

As for the big companies doing anything like that price point, they have economies of scale and way bigger relationships with OEM suppliers and can justify low margin- or loss leaders to get people into their brand. If that price point is the top of your pyramid, you can't do that.

[54ny77]

sounds like a great opportunity to make a small fortune.....



....after starting out with a larger one.

Originally Posted by November Dave

To hit that price point you are buying open mold stuff and cheap components, which I don't think Ben Serotta has any interest in doing. So there's that.

USAC membership is somewhere around 60,000, so there's your audience there. Some big slice has no interest in a $2500 bike. Big slices get team deals and aren't in your market. Big slices keep their bikes for 3/4/5/6 years - and probably more in the low cost part of the segment. So let's just say that it's possible to get 5% marketshare of licensed bike racers, and then divide that by 4 because they're going to be in the market for a new bike roughly every 4 years. So you're selling 750 bikes a year. Among 6 or 8 sizes. You can't hit minimum order quantities like that, and there's no way you're getting good OEM pricing when you divide that up into 3 or 4 parts specs. And if you think you're getting away with one parts spec, nope.

I simply don't think there's any way you're landing a desirable, race ready bike in those volumes for a penny less than $1500. Reaching the people who are in this audience and convincing them that "less expensive" and "just as good" or at least "won't have people laughing at you and turning up their noses" is expensive as get out.

Money is cheap these days but it ain't free. OEMs generally aren't AT ALL generous with terms (more like pay up front at time of order) and then wait 3 months for production and 1 month for shipping. Your bank account might start to go non-negative from sales 8 months after you drained it to pay for product.

Selling and shipping and servicing and all of that stuff for 750 bikes to racers is not a one man job. Just answering the "dudebrah, gimme some stuff and I'll rep your company I'm so legit" emails is a full time job. Boxes cost a lot of money, shipping costs a lot of money, insurance costs a fortune, facilities cost a lot. Get the size mix wrong and you're pwned. Market shifts to a different flavor and you're pwned.

The number of people who've tried some variant of this (including me) is huge. And even several years ago when there were more left in the game, $2500 price points were rare as hen's teeth.

As for the big companies doing anything like that price point, they have economies of scale and way bigger relationships with OEM suppliers and can justify low margin- or loss leaders to get people into their brand. If that price point is the top of your pyramid, you can't do that.

[fignon's barber]

Originally Posted by SerottaDesign

Hello Everyone,

Ben and crew (I am of the latter) have been working hard to launch the new company, Serotta Design Studio ("SDS"). A big piece of that work involved the entirely new Duetti bicycle......

The Duetti has many differentiators. Among these include its 6069 Alu alloy, its entirely new full carbon fork,..........


- SDS

The Cannondale CAAD12 is made from 6069 Alu alloy:

http://www.cannondale.com/en/USA/Pro...0-436b47b34f55

[fa63]

Originally Posted by fignon's barber

The Cannondale CAAD12 is made from 6069 Alu alloy:

And quite frankly, there is more engineering that has gone into that Cannondale in comparison to the SDS offering. But I guess you could say that about any other aluminum frame on the market, and that still doesn't stop the likes of Gaulzetti, Spooky, etc. offering their own version of "high end aluminum".

Good luck to SDS; hope it works out. But as oldpotatoe mentioned, I think they would be better served focusing on what the market wants, instead of trying to deliver their version of the "best bike in the world for everybody...period".

[rwsaunders]

Ben is interviewed on the most recent edition of The Outspoken Cyclist podscat.

http://outspokencyclist.com/2018/01/...nuary-13-2018/

[fiamme red]

The RKP podcast had a segment on Serotta (starts at 24:40): http://redkiteprayer.com/2018/01/the...ne-podcast-99/.

[Pastashop]

Sorry if these are stupid questions, but I’m curious to know what the margins are like in the business. It probably depends on which end of the spectrum, but just for fun... For someone designing bikes to (re)sell for $4-8k complete, and having them made and assembled on contract, would they clear a 25% margin?.. For Black Mtn Cycles, can each $600 frame bring more than $150 clean?.. For Rivendell to sell a $3.6k frame that has unique features and image/story, are they clearing $1k at least pre-tax?.. What about their $1.4k?.. For SDS to sell a $5k bike complete, would they clear $1.5k on each?.. If so, one could see how 100 true fans plus a few others would generate 100-200 frames per year initially, almost a decent wage for a couple of operators, but then for how many years can you keep up these sales figures of “the best bike in the world?” These are presumably durable goods, or are we counting on the N+1 crowd primarily?.. (I’ve more bikes than the average duffer, and I love... no, lurve! my vintage Serotta, but I’m done buying bikes for awhile.)

[peanutgallery]

Dude was/is tone deaf in regard to dealers.
Was a big part of a market that's frittered away in there last 10 years or so. Market has changed a lot. Quickly

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Tough crowd, hope Ben and crew read this stuff...and not just concentrate on selling the 'best bike in the world for everybody...period'.

Lots of pretty raw nerves still out there(mine included from Vecchio's, and as a bike shop owner, I wasn't alone) when it came to Serotta. For the record, I know something about dealing with Serotta, ProPeloton(I was wrench) was the number one Serotta dealer in the world, in the mid 90s. BUT the company and also Ben himself, was often pretty tough to deal with(same with previous shop, Morgul-Bismark..owned by Davis and Ron)...'arrogance', comes to mind. And not recognizing my little bike shop(s), were their customers as much as the guy riding the bike.

Out.

[echelon_john]

Great question. I'm sure others will chime in, but here's my 2¢:

- Offshore sourcing & fabrication can be surprisingly cost effective. But retaining the cost-effectiveness comes from efficiency in shipping. Not to speak for Mike Varley, but when his frames come, he's got an entire run packed into a shipping container, several times a year. I don't know how many frames, but I assume 75-100 frames each time. Maybe more? The math on this is *much* better than shipping single units from Asia, and I have to think that this is part of how Mike is able to deliver the value that he does.

- Rivendell custom frames (not the offshored ones) are built by contracted builders, with whom Rivendell has negotiated a rate based on the builder's ability to fill orders and Rivendell's ability to handle everything else in the transaction outside of the fabrication, which makes it efficient for the builder. They are a sales, marketing, service & support company, just like SDS is. So for Rivendell the builder is getting $X per frame, with either Rivendell or the builder sourcing the materials. They contract for their own lugs/crowns in volume, and realize efficiency there. They probably also have a contracted rate with Joe Bell for paint, which is less than his 'street' price. Good for him because it helps fill capacity and keeps the shop busy/profitable even if it isn't high margin; good for Rivendell because it's Joe Bell/high quality which aligns with the brand promise of their custom bikes. So if we want to play assumptions, we could assume that the cost of a JB paint job to Rivendell is ~$400 for a basic job. The tubing, lugs, dropouts, etc. probably come in around $400. Consumables (silver, fuel, etc) might add another $50-100 at most. So you'd look at $1000 being allocated to materials & paint. Say the builder puts 25 hours into a Rivendell frameset and makes $40/hr. That's another $1k. So in your hypothetical $3600 frame that would leave about $1600 in margin before any parts/incremental sales. I guess you'd have to subtract shipping from the builder to Joe and from Joe to Rivendell from that as well.

- It ain't the frame, it's what you hang. In bike shops, the margin isn't driven by the bike, but by what goes with the bike. Helmet, lock, water bottles, rack, clothing. For small builders, the components are a critical part of building margin. Whether it's Black Mountain, or Rivendell, or IF, including a headset, BB, and any other parts is important--a full groupset/build, even better. To use Black Mountain as an example again, Mike is very smart about stocking parts that his frames are built around. So in addition to having him press a headset (instant margin increase) customers might buy their WTB Riddlers from him (more margin). SO even if he's selling a 'frameset' instead of a complete bike, he's able to realize some of that accessory/component margin.

The bigger question is what makes one Taiwanese-built aluminum frame sell for 5x (or more!) than another one built in the same factory from the same materials with the same paint. I'll leave THAT one to the experts. ; )

Originally Posted by Pastashop

Sorry if these are stupid questions, but I’m curious to know what the margins are like in the business. It probably depends on which end of the spectrum, but just for fun... For someone designing bikes to (re)sell for $4-8k complete, and having them made and assembled on contract, would they clear a 25% margin?.. For Black Mtn Cycles, can each $600 frame bring more than $150 clean?.. For Rivendell to sell a $3.6k frame that has unique features and image/story, are they clearing $1k at least pre-tax?.. What about their $1.4k?.. For SDS to sell a $5k bike complete, would they clear $1.5k on each?.. If so, one could see how 100 true fans plus a few others would generate 100-200 frames per year initially, almost a decent wage for a couple of operators, but then for how many years can you keep up these sales figures of “the best bike in the world?” These are presumably durable goods, or are we counting on the N+1 crowd primarily?.. (I’ve more bikes than the average duffer, and I love... no, lurve! my vintage Serotta, but I’m done buying bikes for awhile.)