2019 Masi Randonneur Elite

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

Any bike is a randonneiring bike so yes, its a rando bike. I mean, could you not use this bike for a brevet? Absolutely.


And yes the bike is heavy but an elephant nfe is only almost a couple lbs heavier.

Is this a road racing bike?


Is this a touring bike?


Jan Heine re-invented the category of "randonneuring bike" based on what the french constructeurs invented in the 30s/40s. It's a lightweight bike designed to take fenders, a front rack and low-trail. He pulled this concept to the production market almost single-handedly so his interpretation as described in BQ and his blog is really the only source worth considering.

The Masi is in no way a good representation of the randonneuring bike as a category. The frame is almost a full pound heavier than it needs to be. Steel disc frames, even at the low-price end are coming in at or a few ounces above 4 pounds with forks around 2 pounds. To add almost two pounds of weight to a frameset is a huge change in the riding character of the bike. It's one thing to have weight in the parts and wheels but in the frame it's a killer.

I'm not commenting blind, I purchased the 2018 model as soon as it was available and was extremely excited to finally get into a production low-trail bike. Only to be massively disappointed. The bike never felt lively and the stiff fork had no compliance. It sucked to ride. The frame is overbuilt because it was spec'd by a production company that had compromises to make and did not understand what they were building. I wasted almost $1500 because the bike was categorized and advertised incorrectly.

A 5 pound steel road frame with almost 3 pound fork is insane. No reason for this bike to be so overbuilt.

The Elephant NFE has a frame that is 11 ounces lighter and a fork that is at least 13 ounces lighter. But there's no reason to compare a custom bike when there are similar production bikes.

Endurance road bikes with low-trail forks are the correct interpretation of the randonneuring bike. Something like the Velo Orange Passhunter Disc with the 60mm offset fork is going to be 6.25 pounds if not a little lighter for a Medium. Soma Fog Cutter is even a little lighter with low-trail disc fork. What Masi is selling, with it's almost 8 pound frameset, is a low-trail touring bike. That is exactly what the frameset weight indicates and exactly how the bike rides.

ETA: Jan Heine's 8-part blog post A Journey of Discovery is a good illustration for anyone curious why some of us ended up on randonneuring bikes: https://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/...-used-to-ride/

[steamer]

A rando bike is a bike used on randonees. Everything else is BS and marketing.

[spoonrobot]

Except that's an ex post facto rationalization based on the recent over-specialization of road bicycle types.

15 years ago nobody would have called a bike ridden on brevets a "randonneuring bike" they would have called it a road bike, touring bike or cross bike. Because those were the genuine categories with specific functional and design choices related to idealized riding styles.

In current year there are several new categories that are still in the process of being defined by both the consumer and the market. They all have differing specific functional and design choices related to their idealized riding styles. Randonnuering bike has a specific aesthetic and design that may have some overlap with other categories but is unique enough to deserve it's own category.

In my interpretation of characteristics of randonneuring bikes the Masi falls short. It shares some design and aesthetic elements but overall does not meet the most important criteria that would differentiate the category from touring bikes - frame and fork tubing choice and overall weight. As it is currently produced, it is a touring bike with a low trail fork. Sure ride it on brevets but it's not a randonneuring bike.

[witcombusa]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

Jan Heine re-invented the category of "randonneuring bike" based on what the french constructeurs invented in the 30s/40s. It's a lightweight bike designed to take fenders, a front rack and low-trail. He pulled this concept to the production market almost single-handedly so his interpretation as described in BQ and his blog is really the only source worth considering.

The Masi is in no way a good representation of the randonneuring bike as a category. The frame is almost a full pound heavier than it needs to be. Steel disc frames, even at the low-price end are coming in at or a few ounces above 4 pounds with forks around 2 pounds. To add almost two pounds of weight to a frameset is a huge change in the riding character of the bike. It's one thing to have weight in the parts and wheels but in the frame it's a killer.

I'm not commenting blind, I purchased the 2018 model as soon as it was available and was extremely excited to finally get into a production low-trail bike. Only to be massively disappointed. The bike never felt lively and the stiff fork had no compliance. It sucked to ride. The frame is overbuilt because it was spec'd by a production company that had compromises to make and did not understand what they were building. I wasted almost $1500 because the bike was categorized and advertised incorrectly.

A 5 pound steel road frame with almost 3 pound fork is insane. No reason for this bike to be so overbuilt.

The Elephant NFE has a frame that is 11 ounces lighter and a fork that is at least 13 ounces lighter. But there's no reason to compare a custom bike when there are similar production bikes.

Endurance road bikes with low-trail forks are the correct interpretation of the randonneuring bike. Something like the Velo Orange Passhunter Disc with the 60mm offset fork is going to be 6.25 pounds if not a little lighter for a Medium. Soma Fog Cutter is even a little lighter with low-trail disc fork. What Masi is selling, with it's almost 8 pound frameset, is a low-trail touring bike. That is exactly what the frameset weight indicates and exactly how the bike rides.

ETA: Jan Heine's 8-part blog post A Journey of Discovery is a good illustration for anyone curious why some of us ended up on randonneuring bikes: https://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/...-used-to-ride/

This is not the same bike. It has a different frame. There are now three bikes in this Masi series. The two lower end bikes have the same frame as you did.
For my 190 pounds the ride is very nice. Yes, it is on the heavy side but she rides beautifully. Handling is neutral, stability is good yet not sluggish. It is not competing with custom Rando bikes at three time it's cost.

Think of it like the great Specialized bikes made in the early 80's, Allez, Sequoia and Expedition. They brought lower cost yet very useful copies of high end bikes to the masses. As I have those bikes in my stable, along with some very high end framebuilder's bikes, THIS is what Masi has done with the
Elite. The $2k only goes so far with careful design selections. You could buy a fork and custom rack for that money from some builders. As for the Rando part, I would ride this for D2R2 or GRR without sacrificing anything.

As to Jan re-inventing "randonneuring bike", believe what you will. Mike Kone of Boulder Bike fame was doing it long before Jan started his business. Peter Weigle knows a bit about this too...

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

Is this a road racing bike?


Is this a touring bike?


Jan Heine re-invented the category of "randonneuring bike" based on what the french constructeurs invented in the 30s/40s. It's a lightweight bike designed to take fenders, a front rack and low-trail. He pulled this concept to the production market almost single-handedly so his interpretation as described in BQ and his blog is really the only source worth considering.

The Masi is in no way a good representation of the randonneuring bike as a category. The frame is almost a full pound heavier than it needs to be. Steel disc frames, even at the low-price end are coming in at or a few ounces above 4 pounds with forks around 2 pounds. To add almost two pounds of weight to a frameset is a huge change in the riding character of the bike. It's one thing to have weight in the parts and wheels but in the frame it's a killer.

I'm not commenting blind, I purchased the 2018 model as soon as it was available and was extremely excited to finally get into a production low-trail bike. Only to be massively disappointed. The bike never felt lively and the stiff fork had no compliance. It sucked to ride. The frame is overbuilt because it was spec'd by a production company that had compromises to make and did not understand what they were building. I wasted almost $1500 because the bike was categorized and advertised incorrectly.

A 5 pound steel road frame with almost 3 pound fork is insane. No reason for this bike to be so overbuilt.

The Elephant NFE has a frame that is 11 ounces lighter and a fork that is at least 13 ounces lighter. But there's no reason to compare a custom bike when there are similar production bikes.

Endurance road bikes with low-trail forks are the correct interpretation of the randonneuring bike. Something like the Velo Orange Passhunter Disc with the 60mm offset fork is going to be 6.25 pounds if not a little lighter for a Medium. Soma Fog Cutter is even a little lighter with low-trail disc fork. What Masi is selling, with it's almost 8 pound frameset, is a low-trail touring bike. That is exactly what the frameset weight indicates and exactly how the bike rides.

ETA: Jan Heine's 8-part blog post A Journey of Discovery is a good illustration for anyone curious why some of us ended up on randonneuring bikes: https://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/...-used-to-ride/

If you tour with a bike, be it a mtb or a tt bike, its a touring bike. The elephant is not custom and a bit lighter but to me still rode a bit heavy but people use it for randonneuring, so it is a touring bike or rando bike?

Originally Posted by steamer

A rando bike is a bike used on randonees. Everything else is BS and marketing.

Yep my opinion as well

[pbarry]

Originally Posted by witcombusa

This is not the same bike. It has a different frame. There are now three bikes in this Masi series. The two lower end bikes have the same frame as you did.
For my 190 pounds the ride is very nice. Yes, it is on the heavy side but she rides beautifully. Handling is neutral, stability is good yet not sluggish. It is not competing with custom Rando bikes at three time it's cost.

Think of it like the great Specialized bikes made in the early 80's, Allez, Sequoia and Expedition. They brought lower cost yet very useful copies of high end bikes to the masses. As I have those bikes in my stable, along with some very high end framebuilder's bikes, THIS is what Masi has done with the
Elite. The $2k only goes so far with careful design selections. You could buy a fork and custom rack for that money from some builders. As for the Rando part, I would ride this for D2R2 or GRR without sacrificing anything.

As to Jan re-inventing "randonneuring bike", believe what you will. Mike Kone of Boulder Bike fame was doing it long before Jan started his business. Peter Weigle knows a bit about this too...

+1. Yep, on both.

This will sell despite the sideways conversation. Solid specs and ride here.

[Clancy]

Originally Posted by pbarry

+1. Yep, on both.

This will sell despite the sideways conversation. Solid specs and ride here.

I agree it will sell and hope it does, as stated, it’s a solid bike at a good price. anything to get people on bikes.

I believe the comments about Jan have to do with his promotion of randonneuring bikes and helping it become a rapidly emerging segment of the bicycle industry. Jan, through BQ, readily acknowledges the past through well documented and beautiful articles.

I have no idea how big of influence Jan’s contribution is to Randonneuring is, but I can say he’s exposed me to it as a cycling sub-culture. I always look forward to my copy of BQ, it’s a brilliant publication.

[witcombusa]

All finished up... just in time for Spring evidently!

[marciero]

If it's all BS and marketing, why use terms like "road bike", "gravel bike", etc. at all? For sure, the types of bikes people ride successfully on brevets vary widely. Lots of-probably most- randonneurs dont buy into the 650b-low trail-wide tires-front rack-bar bag interpretation. Looking at that bike I would call it a rando bike because of the setup and the mental picture I have in my mind. But on the other hand the irony is that it adheres to one man's interpretation in all details but the most important according to that interpretation. I dont see how this Masi is any less a commuter or touring bike than it is a rando bike.

I would also challenge the notion that Mike Kone and Peter Weigle were doing what they do now outside of Jan's influence. I say "challenge" because I am honestly dont know. There were 650b afficionados who faced difficulty obtaining tires. I think Hutchinson made some, but my recollection is that high performance wide 650b tires were not even availabl when Jan started advocating for them ~10-15 years ago. Since 650b bikes (and many others) are designed around the tires, it would seem that the tires came first. All the older Weigles I've seen have been 700c bikes. When was the Boulder All Road first offered?

[paredown]

Originally Posted by witcombusa

<snip>

As to Jan re-inventing "randonneuring bike", believe what you will. Mike Kone of Boulder Bike fame was doing it long before Jan started his business. Peter Weigle knows a bit about this too...

The 6 part post referenced above by Jan acknowledges Mike Kone's influence directly:

"Influenced by Mike Kone (then of Bicycle Classics) and Grant Handley, I had admired the French cyclotouring bikes from René Herse and Alex Singer for a while. The consensus back then was that they were beautiful, but probably not great to ride. Except that nobody I knew had ridden one for any significant distance…"

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/...minum-fenders/

Later in the same series he acknowledges Peter's contribution to discussions about frame stiffness:

"Both Mark and I never had cared much about frame stiffness. Then we tested a few bikes with oversize tubing and relatively thick walls. We were baffled by their relatively poor performance. It was framebuilders and constructeur Peter Weigle who suggested: “Maybe those frames are too stiff for you.”"

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/...ame-stiffness/

These 'points of origin' discussions are usually complicated--people are looking and talking, and the trend is usually in the air as it were. I know I knew nothing of the French tradition until I was reading CR regularly, and read glowing discussions of Singers or Herses--about which I knew less than nothing--and there was lots of interesting exchanges about arcana--trail, tire/wheel size etc--all new to me, some of it interesting ( )

I'll be interested in a ride report (soon if the weather gets better, or in the spring if this really is the start of real winter.)

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by marciero

If it's all BS and marketing, why use terms like "road bike", "gravel bike", etc. at all? lots snipped

Because they are creating demand in a pretty flat bike market..as in, "I have a road bike but want to start doing 'randos'"...better get a 'rando' bike..I have a road bike but want to start riding on gravel, I guess I 'need' a 'gravel grinder'...etc..

[marciero]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Because they are creating demand in a pretty flat bike market..as in, "I have a road bike but want to start doing 'randos'"...better get a 'rando' bike..I have a road bike but want to start riding on gravel, I guess I 'need' a 'gravel grinder'...etc..

But these terms were in use by cyclists before companies jumped in. And we use them all the time. They are useful for discussing things on cycling forums. "I'm thinking of getting a gravel bike". It's okay that they are not well-defined.

[witcombusa]

Originally Posted by marciero

But these terms were in use by cyclists before companies jumped in. And we use them all the time. They are useful for discussing things on cycling forums. "I'm thinking of getting a gravel bike". It's okay that they are not well-defined.

This is an interesting topic. When most cycling people say road bike what they are really saying is RACING bike. Which of course is great for fast recreational riding and well as training rides and naturally racing. One year I brought my just restored Witcomb USA down to Cirque in Greensboro and some of us started talking about ROAD bikes not racers. If you start with 60's/70's stage racing geometries, add wider tires and wider range gearing and maybe slightly more upright position you have a road bike. Which also works well on dirt roads and gravel too. Which was what road bikes had always done before the era of specialization. And I think to some degree this works for a lot of people who aren't going racing and like to explore whatever is down the next road.
Peter is right that the bike companies want to sell you something. So we have wound up with All Road, gravel, touring, rando, urban, commuting, etc. bikes.
I think it is a return to a multipurpose, do most anything kind of bike that works for most things except RACING. For me that sounds like a good trend.

My namesake Witcomb USA built in 1974

[oliver1850]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

I have a hard time thinking of Cromor as "elite". It's an entry-level tubeset for Columbus.

Hardly entry level, though I'd agree that elite is a stretch. Cromor has the same wall thickness as SLX in all but the top tube, down tube, and stays, which are all .1 mm thicker. The tubeset weighs 224 g more than SLX.

Nice bike. I'd like to try one.

[witcombusa]

Soma still lists their version as well... with input from Mike Kone.

https://www.somafab.com/archives/pro...neur-frame-set

It is built with Tange Prestige CrMo tubes, double-butted, non-oversized.