Do gravel race participants care about "lining up with the pros"?

[spoonrobot]

Saw this post from EB in the gravel bikes thread and think it deserves it's own discussion. An Op-Ed from gravel racer Lauren De Crescenzo about the status and possible future of Gravel events.

This is obviously an multi-faceted issue. If women need their own race for a fair event; that necessitates a separate race for the men, which requires a division between pro/amateur. The justifications for why this is bad seem imaginary, theoretical.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/la...in-bike-event/

In addition to my racing, I am actively engaged in shaping the future of gravel through my involvement in an athlete advisory group collaborating with Life Time...

On the mass starts, especially in gravel, I think a change is crucial if we want to establish true women's races, rather than relying on chance factors such as which male group you're caught up with, pro or amateur...

...The current setup often feels arbitrary, relying too heavily on external factors like male assistance or motives.

For women to compete on a level playing field, we require our own starting line. This is essential to guarantee that the strongest racer wins.

My view is that most attendees do not have a strong preference for "lining up with the pros" and care more about the total event atmosphere. I think separate start times would change little about the current events, however separate days would have a negative effect. People want the excitement of a big event where is feels like they did something and things happened that bring them attention and status from their peers. This idea that Gravel grew from small niche events to 100x national events based on "lining up with the pros" is nonsense.

The groundswell was there before their were pros and the current statistics show the largest areas of growth are at the distances where there are no professional riders - the intermediate and short distance events.



I also think that what happens at the Lifetime Grand Prix and other national level events, can, but often does not, effect local gravel events. Larger events are a smaller part of the whole than online posting would have one believe.

Fundamentally, the success of Gravel is based around the idea of accomplishment and esteem to every rider. The fact that pros and amateurs would be separated means little in my view.

The decline of other cycling sports is based around the relative pointlessness of the pursuit, not the categorization and professionalization of those sports. Providing a sense of purpose to individual attendees is what gravel does better than other disciplines, right now. I do not believe the changes to the professional categories will change the culture in such a way as to be detrimental to this idea.

Is there a large population of gravel racers who are drawn to events to line up with the pros? Will separate start times and separate races drive these people elsewhere? Is there a difference between stated and revealed preference in this instance? Does it matter?

[EB]

I think the critique of this is more directed at cycling media and the promotional strategy around these events as they strive to become more "professional." You are correct that these events grew up from the grassroots. I think the fear is that as more and more money, media and marketing centers these pros and their concerns, the same exclusivity that turned people off from USAC road racing will impact these events as well.

In other words instead of a hug from the founder at the finish line for every finisher - or whatever - the focus of the event becomes the podium, the purse, etc.

[vespasianus]

You see this at most gravel races. Many of the "top" finishing women are in a group of men- in some cases pulling them the entire race.

[Likes2ridefar]

I would absolutely want to line up with the pros as a competitive racer back in the day since that was my goal too.

[CAAD]

Gravel races have become such a cash grab, I don't plan on attending another one any time soon. Paying $1+ per mile for the privilege of riding my bike on open public roads with a number plate, no thanks. Plus I am tired of funding the purse for the pros, so yeah they should have their own events.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

My view is that most attendees do not have a strong preference for "lining up with the pros" and care more about the total event atmosphere.

And that event atmosphere that makes it such a fun experience as a regular participant is also part of the draw for pros and the marketing/exposure of the event.

I think its really hard to have one without the other, and being able to do the same event on the same day as the pros is one of the really cool things about bike racing.

[Mark McM]

I've attended many Pro/Am road races over the last few decades, which had separate fields for pros vs. amateurs. For those races, although the amateurs raced in different fields from the pros, some of the draw was being able to race on the same courses on the same day as the pros. Gravel is different from road racing of course, but there might be a similar draw in gravel, even if the amateurs had a delayed start time from the pros.

[mstateglfr]

If I were in one of the massive gravel races where pros show, I would not want to line up with them because it would just be frustrating for them and stressful for me.
I dont want to be the reason why a bunch of people are grumpy from riding too slowly at the start.

When I do local races, I also dont start at the front for the same reason- even the handful of ex-Continental and semi-pro team guys that are at those shouldnt have to navigate around me in a crowded start.
I start in the middle, ride my 16ish average, and end behind the middle. It works well.




As for separating women and having them start at a different time...I have no idea. I am not a woman and dont know any elite gravel racing women so I havent asked any of them what they want.
Part of the challenge for gravel races is the mass start, and thats true regardless of is someone is male or female. You sometimes get stuck in a group you dont want to be in at the start. I dont know how to stop that, but I guess separate start times would work. Seems like pro men should have a separate start time then too, for the same reason...right? It sounds like an issue for pros regardless of gender, unless I am missing something big.

[45K10]

Way before gravel events became a thing, I raced as a cat 2 in Florida. I hated it when some of the US domestic Pros would come down to the races in February / March and kick everyone's ass. I was only paying $20 to race. Why on earth would someone paying $200 to do some gravel race care about what the Pros are doing.

[prototoast]

I think for most participants, they don't need to line up alongside the pros, but it's not always clear to me when these complaints are about the "casual" riders and when these complaints are about the "elite, but not pro" riders. I think if you stop "elite, but not pros" from riding with the "pros," you diminish the event. Especially if it turns out that some people in the "amateur" field end up finishing faster than some of the pros.

I definitely get the sense that the marginal pro, struggling to get buy with a small amount of sponsorship money, thinks they're more important than the guy with a comfortable day job who does this as a hobby, even if the latter person is just as fast.

If the elite fields remain open to all (or with reasonable qualifying standards), then it comes down to money and logistics. I'm just not sure it's financially viable to run a 44 person women's field (unbound 2023) on a separate day. Nor is it logistically feasible to run amateurs on a 2 hour delayed start at Sea Otter when it's a 2 lap course and the elite winner finished in 4 hours. And starting the slowest people later, especially for the really long races, would seem to be really tough to work out.

Ultimately, I think this is mostly a problem for the elite women. There aren't enough of them to run on their own day, and there often isn't enough daylight to start them far enough of the amateur men to ensure that at least some of them won't get caught. On the elite men's side, it seems like Keegan just rides away from the start, and until the finishing sprint at Unbound, he never sees them again (this is a more solvable problem).

[zs3889]

Originally Posted by CAAD

Gravel races have become such a cash grab, I don't plan on attending another one any time soon. Paying $1+ per mile for the privilege of riding my bike on open public roads with a number plate, no thanks. Plus I am tired of funding the purse for the pros, so yeah they should have their own events.

I just found out from someone trying to sell/transfer their entry to the Belgian Waffle Ride - a single entry sells for $280...

[benb]

I haven't done any of these gravel events but I have experienced it at hillclimbs where Pros were there and obviously in RR, Cross, and MTB where I was in one field and the Pros were there in their field.

I think it is pretty neat, but even there (hillclimbs) they would line up the Pros in the first wave. The rest of us would have to have qualifying times to get into the first wave to actually line up with them. On my best day I missed that by a hair, but IIRC it was super cool cause that did mean I was fast enough I saw some of them in the race.

The thing with the women getting pulled by men is super lame. Again saw the same thing in the hillclimbs. The difference is too big. I remember beating some of the Pro women in said hillclimbs, but it's kind of fine there as no one is getting a meaningful draft in those races.

Cross and MTB have/had some of this two.

I'd say yah, very cool they are there on the same day, neat to see them afterwards, before, whatever. I didn't even get to go to that many of these big things and I still got way closer to or met a bunch of Pros in a way I never would in any of the ball sports. It is really a neat thing. Also running into Pros when you are JRA and riding with them even a little bit is a super cool thing in our sport. An even more rare thing.

It's cool, but structure it so it doesn't effect the racing in any category, especially women getting pulled by men who are faster than the women's field but can't compete for the podium in the men's field.

I think you have to line the elite amateurs up with the pros at least some of the time.. lots of people know someone who was a Cat 2 who beat the Pro field one day on a course that catered to their strength.. it might be the best day of someone's amateur career and that also adds something to the sport IMO.

[Spdntrxi]

lining up next to them no... riding the sameday yes.

I think the pros should be at the front, but they dont need their own start window. Having just done sea otter gravel they are so above and beyond most. With a small climb at the front they get all the separation they need from the likes of me.

[tootall]

I think they do. Events seem to blow up when they get big names showing up, then all the amateurs flock to them. How did Gravel Locos get so big? It seemed to me like they had a lot of star power talking about it (Laurens Ten Dam, Ted King, etc.) which put them on the map.

I did Rad Dirt Fest in 2022, it was a Lifetime event but wasn't yet in the Grand Prix. There were around 500 people there, about the same as the year before. In 2023 they added it to the Grand Prix and numbers jumped by 30+%, much more than the Grand Prix racers alone.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by prototoast

If the elite fields remain open to all (or with reasonable qualifying standards), then it comes down to money and logistics. I'm just not sure it's financially viable to run a 44 person women's field (unbound 2023) on a separate day. Nor is it logistically feasible to run amateurs on a 2 hour delayed start at Sea Otter when it's a 2 lap course and the elite winner finished in 4 hours. And starting the slowest people later, especially for the really long races, would seem to be really tough to work out.

I was under the impression that gravel races were run point-to-point or on one big loop (rather than multiple laps of a smaller loop). If so, then why not have an interval start? Maybe start the Elite/Pro women 15 or 20 minutes after the Elite/Pro men, and then the amateurs in one or two groups at another interval after that?