OT: why does Idaho want to kill its wolf population?

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by steveandbarb1

Live in RI on a cove within Narragansett Bay. We have viewed coyotes within 30 feet of us (we behind fence) and the eaten leftovers of a Canadian goose in our driveway. And we live in densely populated area (as most of shoreline is).

They're so soft and fluffy it makes you just want to snuggle them to death!

[reuben]

Originally Posted by Ozz

Depending on where you are, I do not wholeheartedly disagree with this. Fishing remote rivers in Alaska or Montana, where surprising a grizzly could be bad news. A gun makes sense...see "be prepared" above.

No, bear spray is far more effective. If you think that you can hit a target that's coming at you at 30mph and bouncing up and down, you're wrong. Point the spray at the ground in front of you, and your odds of survival increase dramatically. That's for brown bears.

Black bears are much easier to deal with, but again, bear spray is much more effective.

[ripvanrando]

Originally Posted by goonster

Sorry, I'm not the most sophisticated of men, but that seems like one heckuva contradiction.

How do you think the State is going to manage the numbers? Encourage them to emigrate?

You haven't fully characterized my position and I am not going to repeat it.

If the state has caused a problem, it is incumbent upon them to fix it. I am pretty sure I stated several times, they should do their own dirty work aka killing or slaughtering.

[thew]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

Maybe that subset exist out here became the feds control so much more of the state lands out here.

The two ends of the spectrum:

Nev-85%
Utah-65%

New York-.03%
Iowa - .03%

Maybe, just maybe, people out west have a justified reason for feeling like they do?

I also don't think we should assume that everyone in the west feels the same way . Speaking as someone who works in natural resource management and lived out west for many years (though I don't currently.)

I don't deny that that people have reasons for opposing active federal land management in the west, in that there are deep historical and cultural reasons for this opposition. That said the reality is that western communities and economies are diversifying, the environment is changing, and our collective values towards nature at a societal level are shifting.

[Ozz]

Originally Posted by reuben

No, bear spray is far more effective. If you think that you can hit a target that's coming at you at 30mph and bouncing up and down, you're wrong. Point the spray at the ground in front of you, and your odds of survival increase dramatically. That's for brown bears.

Black bears are much easier to deal with, but again, bear spray is much more effective.

A friend of mine went guided fishing up in Alaska, and they were all given guns. The guide told them that if they saw a grizzly to fire up into the air...hitting the grizzly would just piss it off. Not sure if he was joking or not...

I always like the joke: How can you tell whether bear scat is from a black bear or grizzly bear? Black bear droppings are smaller and often contain berries, leaves, and possibly bits of fur. Grizzly bear droppings tend to contain small bells and smell of pepper.

[chrismoustache]

Anyone interested in this topic should definitely check out Coyote America by Dan Flores. I, for one, did not realize that the US Department of Ag's Wildlife Service spends a lot of money to fly around in helicopters and kill coyotes for ranchers.

[benb]

Originally Posted by Ozz

A friend of mine went guided fishing up in Alaska, and they were all given guns. The guide told them that if they saw a grizzly to fire up into the air...hitting the grizzly would just piss it off. Not sure if he was joking or not...

I always like the joke: How can you tell whether bear scat is from a black bear or grizzly bear? Black bear droppings are smaller and often contain berries, leaves, and possibly bits of fur. Grizzly bear droppings tend to contain small bells and smell of pepper.

It generally seems the people who live in these areas are very very very sure they want the guns with them.

I think there has been some whitewashing of some of these predators... back when the woods were exploding with them even on the east coast the accounts of their behavior were very different.

I recently read "A Libertarian Walks into a Bear" about Grafton, NH, the stories in that book are pretty illuminating and there's a pretty decent collection of historic accounts from New England colonial days.

You have to assume every historical account from colonial times is 100% false and a lie to buy into the modern stories that Bears in particular will stay away by default.

Also even the idea they can take down deer & moose seems to have had to be "rediscovered".

Coyotes/Coywolves seem like they are not doing much damage though.

I have no idea how many we have.. it seems like they haven't got a count.

I live right in the central village in my town, 15 miles west of Boston. I've seen a Coyote right on my street which is considered "densely populated".

A couple years ago I had something killed in my yard, the entrails were left behind and it was a nasty mess for me to clean up. That's plus the disappearance of deer is basically the only effect that can be seen.

It's interesting how politicized the wolves are in Idaho given it sounds like Idaho (from a quick google search) has 20x more bears than wolves. Bears can certainly take livestock, pets, etc.. too.

[ripvanrando]

Originally Posted by reuben

No, bear spray is far more effective. If you think that you can hit a target that's coming at you at 30mph and bouncing up and down, you're wrong. Point the spray at the ground in front of you, and your odds of survival increase dramatically. That's for brown bears.

Black bears are much easier to deal with, but again, bear spray is much more effective.

Do you any experience to back that statement? Most discussions and internet posts are by people who know little and are centered on handguns. A 9mm won't dent a brown bear and even a 10 loaded hot with 220 grain hardcast is a crapshoot and it requires a CNS shot.

I would personally be much more comfortable with a semi-automatic shotgun with a rifled barrel with an extended tube full of particular slugs and an Eotech holographic sight on top. Other members of the party can spray pepper.

A Weatherby 460 Magnum will knock almost any bear right onto its ass or more properly stated stop it in its tracks. I have been up close and personal with a Cape Buffalo and I did not have a firearm (it was in the land cruiser). If I had it, I would have pulled the trigger. I am lucky.

Spray is 33% effective on charging Brown Bears and firearms are 85% effective.

https://www.outsideonline.com/240124...ear-spray-work

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by ripvanrando

Spray is 33% effective on charging Brown Bears and firearms are 85% effective.

100% effective is bringing along a friend who can't run as fast as you..

[Kirk007]

Originally Posted by benb

It's interesting how politicized the wolves are in Idaho given it sounds like Idaho (from a quick google search) has 20x more bears than wolves. Bears can certainly take livestock, pets, etc.. too.

For a great read on this by a great author I recommend the late Barry Lopez's book "Of wolves and Men." Read it in College over winter break on year and it steered me into policy and out of biological field work (well actually Farley Mowat's account of being a wolf biologist "marking" his territory in Alaska convinced my that law school had more "interesting social prospects" than being a wolf biologist ; )

[Kirk007]

Originally Posted by ripvanrando

.

I have been up close and personal with a Cape Buffalo and I did not have a firearm (it was in the land cruiser). If I had it, I would have pulled the trigger. I am lucky.


https://www.outsideonline.com/240124...ear-spray-work

My second most ass puckering wildlife moment: napping in a landcruiser on a 112 degree afternoon along the Zambezi river when this big bull elephant decided he wanted to graze the acacia tree we were parked under. I'm the tall guy without much hair on the back seat. Guide in the front seat had his hand on the trigger of his "elephant" gun that went everywhere with him. It was a moment of absolute stillness and acceptance that there was nothing we could do if the elephant decided to move us out of the way. The elephants tusks were over the hood of the truck, close enough that the front passenger could have touched them if she hadn't had her head turned and eyes closed. An amazing moment in time not to be forgotten. Lucky for everyone the elephant moved on. Most ass puckering - staring match with 12 foot tiger shark. Looking at those eyes all I could think of was that it's primordial brain was calculating whether I was food or foe



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bigbill]

Originally Posted by benb

It generally seems the people who live in these areas are very very very sure they want the guns with them.

True about the guns. I have friends up in Alaska and they'll carry a 44 magnum revolver in the woods or while fishing.

[HenryA]

Selective shooting is probably much more humane than this:

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2019...1791575589679/

And safer for other critters and kids.

[reuben]

Originally Posted by ripvanrando

Do you any experience to back that statement?

Yes. Mostly black bears due to my location. But as mentioned, they're generally easier to deal with. Friends who live in Montana, Wyoming, etc. also take spray but no guns, and have done so for decades. The same is true for other acquaintances who backpack in various locations.

One guy takes a gun once per year - for his annual elk hunt.
.

[Llewellyn]

Why do humans think they have an inalienable right to destroy anything (either flora or fauna) that gets in it's way

No wonder the world is FUBAR.