Know the rules The Paceline Forum Builder's Spotlight


Go Back   The Paceline Forum > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-05-2021, 12:30 AM
Dave Ferris Dave Ferris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Glendale, Ca.
Posts: 301
Semi-OT-- PRP or Stem Cell injections

My osteoarthritis in both knees is hugely threatening my running. I'm almost 68, 44 years running and close to 80K lifetime miles. I've had a great run (no pun intended) but this year and last have been the most challenging to my running. The knee issue came on all of a sudden, I've never experienced knee problems, even a little, Ever ! I chalk it up to age and cumulative effect of all the years and miles.

I guess I'm lucky that it's not hugely affected my cycling or walking...but both aren't as fulfilling and gratifying to me as running.

I was on the DL starting Jan. 8 for 10 weeks and received a pair of cortisone shots March 11 that got me back running, and cycling up steep hills with no pain. Having much experience with cortisone shots , I know the effect is temporary.

I'm asking around locally to runner and cyclist friends if they have any experience, particularly in the knee, with either PRP or stem cell injection. So far, I'm not getting any feed back on either, so I thought I'd ask a broader audience here.

PRP is more common. And rarely covered under an HMO insurance plan from what I've been told by my primary care doctor and current rheumatologist who just gave me the shots. Both of those Doctors said...save your money it's a placebo effect.

Stem Cell I know absolutely zip about except that Kobe went to Germany to get treatment on his knees in an attempt to prolong his career. It seems it bought him a little more time, maybe another season.

Just doing some cursory digging it appears a Dr. Paul Tortland in Connecticut is one of the leading figures in the US.

There's a holistic type wellness clinic up in Santa Barbara where the younger Dr. there studied under Dr. Tortland. I'm guessing that the stem cell would even more dough then the PRP injections. And like PRP, not covered under insurance.

But if I hear enough positive fairly long term results from cyclist or runners, I'm considering spending/investing the dough to keep my passion going.

I'm realistic in that I don't expect to be breaking 40 minutes in a 10K anymore, or run anymore Marathons. But if I could just cruise along with my Border Collie pup at a 9-10 minute pace (hell at this point I'd take 11 minute pace) , 30-40 miles a week, 5 or 6 days, like I was doing prior to last year ....and not have a limp to my gait, I'd be overjoyed.

Thanks.

Last edited by Dave Ferris; 05-05-2021 at 02:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-05-2021, 12:43 AM
gasman's Avatar
gasman gasman is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: eugene,oregon
Posts: 6,761
I hate to be a downer but what little I’ve read and seen I’m not impressed by either for osteoarthritis . Have you looked into Synvisc injections-basically acts as a a several month lube for your knees. I’ve got an orthopedic buddy with two knees that are bone on bone. He gets injections about twice a year to stave off today knee replacement . He quit running years ago.
Best of luck.
__________________
Life is short-enjoy every day.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-05-2021, 12:48 AM
tomato coupe tomato coupe is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 829
I've had PRP treatment for my elbow on two occasions with good success. Unlike the (relatively) instant relief of cortisone, I would say it gave a very steady improvement over 4-6 weeks. BUT, my problem was tendonitis, not osteoarthritis.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-05-2021, 12:53 AM
Dave Ferris Dave Ferris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Glendale, Ca.
Posts: 301
I've heard the word Synvisc mentioned before, along with Euflexxa, Orthovisk and Hyaluronic acid gel shots. I know nothing about any of them but on my next Dr. visit I will inquire. We are changing the medical group effective May 10 to UCLA in Burbank. Right now we have Optum/Health (Hack) Care Partners and I don't even trust my primary care Doc to prescribe an aspirin to be honest.

I'm fortunate that the x-rays an independent facility in Pasadena took show both knee joints being extremely healthy for 67. No bone on bone whatsoever.

I've done some soul searching these past months realizing it might be all over but I'm going explore every reasonable avenue to keep it going.

Thanks.

Last edited by Dave Ferris; 05-05-2021 at 01:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-05-2021, 05:40 AM
CNY rider CNY rider is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hartwick NY
Posts: 4,592
A sudden onset knee problem with extremely healthy looking joints on X-ray does not sound like osteoarthritis.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-05-2021, 06:40 AM
TomP TomP is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,728
For what it's worth, I am considering PRP and stem cell for my lower back. I have studied this for over 10 years. One of the world's most renown researchers is at Mayo Florida. His name is Dr. Wenchen Qu. I might suggest a visit with him. Mine with him was virtual.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-05-2021, 07:47 AM
herb5998 herb5998 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 757
While I haven't had it done myself, two family members, and three work colleagues recovering from injuries used PRP injections to great effect. Much better over the long term for all of them compared to cortisone.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-05-2021, 03:31 PM
bshell bshell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 476
PRP for bilateral patellar tendinopathy =no help.

Stem cells harvested from my hip bones and injected into two allegedly leaking lumbar discs from minor tears =no help.

Chronic pain and limitation was physically and spiritually the hardest thing I've ever been through. Somehow, I'm mostly good now ...10 years later.

Still might be worth trying if it doesn't put you in the poorhouse. I would have gone to the poorhouse with a beaming smile on my face if any of the numerous medical treatments had worked.

Totally wish you all of the luck.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-05-2021, 04:11 PM
teleguy57 teleguy57 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,135
I won't opine on the diagnosis, but did have a TKA (full knee replacement in September at age 66, and some day the other will need to be done.

Did a fair amount of running in the day, and had some knee issues early on. A couple meniscectomies (sp?) along the way. Cortisone shots twice.

Back in 2009 consulted again with an ortho guy, who looked at the x-rays and said we could try hyaluronic acid (HA) injections, otherwise come see me when it you think you may be ready for a replacement.

My family practice MD trained under some folks in Madison WI who pioneered the use of prolotherapy for OA. We decided based on the literature that HA results were inconclusive at best, with some contraindications so we decided to pass on that path. Did 4 months of monthly prolo injections (30-40 per treatment -- not fun, but not the worst thing I've experienced) and didn't really notice anything significant. So when the other knee started acting up was recommended to a top-notch knee guy and based on his assessment of progression and prognosis went the with surgery.

So, to the OPs question only read about PRP or stem cell injections. Will follow the thread for others' experiences since I still have this other deteriorating knee.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-05-2021, 05:18 PM
djg21 djg21 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 4,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by gasman View Post
I hate to be a downer but what little I’ve read and seen I’m not impressed by either for osteoarthritis . Have you looked into Synvisc injections-basically acts as a a several month lube for your knees. I’ve got an orthopedic buddy with two knees that are bone on bone. He gets injections about twice a year to stave off today knee replacement . He quit running years ago.
Best of luck.
I had Synvisc injections (hyaluronic acid) before ultimately having my knee replaced 8 years ago. All I can say is that the injections didn’t hurt. I cannot say that they helped at all. But I was merely trying to delay the TKR, which I ended up having at age 48. Stupid contact sports.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-05-2021, 05:19 PM
rnhood rnhood is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ormond Beach
Posts: 4,216
These hip new age treatments promise a lot but deliver little. Heck, I don't even think insurance will cover some of these treatments. So unless you have money to waste, talk to your doctor about Synvisc or one of its derivatives for short/medium term relief. At least these have some track record and insurance should cover them....I think.

People have been looking for Ponce's fountain for years and years, and no one has found it yet. You're not likely to be the first.

Last edited by rnhood; 05-05-2021 at 06:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-05-2021, 05:43 PM
bigbill bigbill is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Northwest, AZ
Posts: 2,431
I see the Rheumatologist on Monday for my knees. I've got Lupus-like auto-immune issues but my knees are OA from 27 years in the Navy working on steel decks and playing sports. I've got fresh xrays that show very little cartilage so I'll get injections in both knees starting on Monday. I just turned 56 and the Rheumatologist would like me to reach 60 before I get replacements. The pamphlets he gave me show relief for up to 4 years, but I'm not sure what kind of activity level that assumes. I'm only cycling and hiking, no running.

If my quality of life become seriously impacted by OA in my knees, my Dr and I have agreed to not wait on replacements, but I'm willing to try the injections.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-05-2021, 05:45 PM
Dave Ferris Dave Ferris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Glendale, Ca.
Posts: 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by bshell View Post
PRP for bilateral patellar tendinopathy =no help.

Stem cells harvested from my hip bones and injected into two allegedly leaking lumbar discs from minor tears =no help.

Chronic pain and limitation was physically and spiritually the hardest thing I've ever been through.
Still might be worth trying if it doesn't put you in the poorhouse. I would have gone to the poorhouse with a beaming smile on my face if any of the numerous medical treatments had worked.

Totally wish you all of the luck.
Well that's not encouraging in the least. I'm also fortunate that as of right now, I don't have any pain where I have to take Ibuprofen or other drugs. I do have dual ice packs that I immediately apply after running, cycling or any walking over 60 minutes.

You know your "Somehow, I'm mostly good now ...10 years later" sounds very reminiscent to my big toe issue, other wise known as Hallux Rigidus. Last x-ray maybe 6 years ago showed stage 4 in the left toe and stage 3 in the right. It's bone on bone with both toes.

I lived on cortisone shots for at least 7 years. Around age 59 I visited the Kerlan-Jobe Clinic here in LA about a half dozen times in just one year for cortisone shots in the toes. The pain was indescribable ! Running and cycling irritated it. On the bike being clipped in was the worst. I finally had to forget the clips and just go with a regular flat pedal.

My last cortisone shots in the toe were Jan. 2 2015. I remember because it was right after my last Prostate cancer radiation treatment on 12/31/14. Somehow, unknown to me, the pain subsided.

Once in awhile they flare up, like when I walked 8 miles earlier in the year --- funny I could run 16 miles and they were fine.

Wanted to mention my gym finally re-opened after 14 months and I've been back twice now using the machines-- lying leg press, seated leg press, hip/glute kickback machine, seated leg curl and extension, and a few others. All with the minimum weight and doing separate legs. I'm hoping this will be paramount in rehabbing the knee. I would bet money not doing any leg strength training the past 14 months has contributed to my problems. Yeah I know you can do stuff at home but I just didn't.

Thanks almost everyone for posting and your experiences and thoughts. Taking it all in.

Last edited by Dave Ferris; 05-05-2021 at 06:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-05-2021, 06:09 PM
eddief eddief is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 10,485
interestingly enough

I have a woman cycling friend in her 60s. She leads a small local group of cyclists named the tortoises, not fast but they do focus on climbing.

I think her issue was osteoarthritis connected to her knee / meniscus??? She spent $1K of her own money for one PRP treatment here: https://www.gloriatuckermd.com/. She said it was the best grand she's ever spent.

Took 6 weeks to recover. Now my question is was it the PRP or 6 weeks of rest off the bike?
__________________
Roubaix Di2, Curtlo S&S Etap, Turbo Creo
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-05-2021, 06:35 PM
jimcav jimcav is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,110
Another positive stroy

A few months ago a former coworker contacted me out of the blue to say another coworker was back running again after years off— they new me as a cyclist and runner. He had Bad ankle trauma from an accident. She wanted me to know he had injections done and it was miraculous. He then contacted me, told me it was painful and took a 3 injection series over months, but the results were amazing for him; and suggested I talk to the doctor who helped him. At the time my issue was more neuropathic vs joint plus with COViD I did not want to travel.

I know it was not PRP, it might have been a stem cell sort of thing. Anyway it was Dr Brett Lockman up in Sonora CA
Good luck
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.