OT: CBD oil for knee pain

[Octave]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

So does your lab test it? Make it? Sell it? Debunk it? Provide advice to those who do make it/sell it?

Ours is a neuroscience laboratory studying the development of the endocannabinoid system. Our focus is largely on prenatal and early-life developmental effects of cannabis (i.e. offspring of mothers who smoke during pregnancy or breastfeeding, or developmental effects of cannabis consumption during adolescence). We do a mix of electrophysiology, behavioral testing, genetic analysis (qPCR, RNAseq..etc.) and calcium-imaging of neuronal populations. Some of our work is "basic pharmacology" which means figuring out what effect cannabinoids have on synaptic function.

CBD is a particularly promiscuous drug (i.e. it has a lot of biological targets) and anyone who tells you they know how it works is either a) lying or b) misinformed. We collaborate with lots of other labs that are studying CBD and it has many possible mechanisms including at serotonin receptors, cannabinoid receptors, nuclear receptors like PPARy, TRPV receptors....etc. It also impacts enzyme function and, as mentioned, hormone regulation. But how much of that contributes to its overall effects is still largely unknown.

[cbbr]

I tried it, but it had no discernible effect. My kees are high mileage for my age and I'm getting pretty old.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Octave

Preface: I'm a neuroscientist who works in a cannabinoid lab. We have done a lot with CBD and I spend my days reading/writing about it.

Topical CBD without carrying agents like DMSO is total nonsense. Any effect people are experiencing is because they are rubbing on a cream, stimulating blood flow - not an effect of CBD.

Oral CBD has been shown, in some conditions, to help with inflammation - the key here is some conditions. They other key, which is always left out of CBD discussions, is dose. Take a look through the published studies and you'll see that effective doses of CBD range from 150-400mg/day oral. I can count the studies with positive findings at less than thoses doses on one hand, and they're for very specific conditions like childhood epilepsy. The stuff most people are buying and using these days is in the range of 10s of milligrams. Or in vapes, at a concentration such that you'd have to be vaping 10ml of the stuff per day to get an effect.

The CBD world is rife with hyperbole, over-extension of small findings, and then total snake-oil hawking. It is also a known hormone modulator, interferes with some of the important enzymes that also help you process other drugs like birth control and anxiolytics, and tends to build up in your system if used frequently since it is highly lipophilic and has a long half-life. Proceeed with caution..

Just had a thought. So if it is lipophilic and builds up in the system could it be that people report positive results after some time because of that? Or when it dissolves in fat does it change it's chemical structure?

[Octave]

Originally Posted by redir

Just had a thought. So if it is lipophilic and builds up in the system could it be that people report positive results after some time because of that? Or when it dissolves in fat does it change it's chemical structure?

Yes, this is what we'd refer to pharmacokinetically as a "loading dose" phase. Since the half-life of CBD is pretty long (18hr for fast metabolizers, >30hr for slow), plasma levels build up over time. And both CBD and its metabolites are lipophilic, so your adipose tissue stores both the active compound and its byproducts. From the studies that have been done, chronic CBD and acute CBD definitely don't have the same effects. For inflammation, for instance, chronic dosing seems to work better. For some other effects (like craving inhibition in addicts, or situational anxiety), acute dosing seems to work just fine. That also has to do with the aforementioned pharmacology of CBD having multiple targets: those targets are all activated by different concentrations of the drug, so what we see with an acute dose will probably be different from a chronic dose where plasma concentrations have risen enough..

[jh_on_the_cape]

I put powdered "hemp protein" in my smoothies in the morning. Would a hemp protein powder contain any pharmocologically active compounds?

Of course, the label says nothing...

https://www.bobsredmill.com/hemp-protein-powder.html

I am going to try topical creme on my knees (ultrarunner) because the mild pain has started to slow me down on long descents. I stretch, cannot lose much more weight, but it's just overuse at this point. But I don't want to run less or more slowly... for now. This thread will hopefully help me when I walk in to the store.

Merci for sharing your knowledge

Originally Posted by Octave

This one is a bit hard to suss out since they don't actually list the dosage of CBD in those capsules. They list the total weight (1500mg) of the capsule and then for the ingredients they state 450mg of hemp oil and 50mg of hemp extract (which is further confusing, since the oil is an extract...). But since it is not purified, you could be experiencing effects that have less to do with CBD and more to do with other cannabinoids. There are more than 100 pharmacologically active compounds in cannabis/hemp and many of them have properties that would be helpful in recovery.

One also has to consider the "entourage effect" which is basically another way of saying "more than the sum of its parts" - cannabinoids work in concert with eachother at a molecular level to modulate the endocannabinoid system (our naturally produced cannabinoids, amongst the most abundant neurotransmitters/signaling molecules in our brain and body) which is why most studies show that CBD works much better as a whole-plant extract than a purified, isolated form. In fact, in the most successful studies thus far in humans doses of CBD are usually paired with miniscule amounts of THC (such as 100mg CBD and 1mg THC) for this very reason.

[cmg]

Here are some chemicals that may reduce the swelling/inflammation associated with arthritis, Meloxicam, ibuprofen and Moringa. Moringa is the latest natural miracle drug and like CBD oil is said to cure everything.

[Octave]

Originally Posted by jh_on_the_cape

I put powdered "hemp protein" in my smoothies in the morning. Would a hemp protein powder contain any pharmocologically active compounds?

Of course, the label says nothing...

https://www.bobsredmill.com/hemp-protein-powder.html

Hemp protein like this is made from the seeds, which do not contain any significant quantities of pharmacologically active compounds. You can find a handful of studies that say they do, but they're mostly the result of the seeds not being washed/processed and coming from high-potency cannabis. In the case of hemp protein it's coming from low-content cannabis plants to begin with, and then the seeds are washed, processed and powdered. Definitely not going to be containing an active dose of CBD.

[jh_on_the_cape]

Originally Posted by Octave

Hemp protein like this is made from the seeds, which do not contain any significant quantities of pharmacologically active compounds. You can find a handful of studies that say they do, but they're mostly the result of the seeds not being washed/processed and coming from high-potency cannabis. In the case of hemp protein it's coming from low-content cannabis plants to begin with, and then the seeds are washed, processed and powdered. Definitely not going to be containing an active dose of CBD.

Thanks! I was told the hemp protein sales is a by product of the CBD boom.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Octave

Ours is a neuroscience laboratory studying the development of the endocannabinoid system. Our focus is largely on prenatal and early-life developmental effects of cannabis (i.e. offspring of mothers who smoke during pregnancy or breastfeeding, or developmental effects of cannabis consumption during adolescence). We do a mix of electrophysiology, behavioral testing, genetic analysis (qPCR, RNAseq..etc.) and calcium-imaging of neuronal populations. Some of our work is "basic pharmacology" which means figuring out what effect cannabinoids have on synaptic function.

CBD is a particularly promiscuous drug (i.e. it has a lot of biological targets) and anyone who tells you they know how it works is either a) lying or b) misinformed. We collaborate with lots of other labs that are studying CBD and it has many possible mechanisms including at serotonin receptors, cannabinoid receptors, nuclear receptors like PPARy, TRPV receptors....etc. It also impacts enzyme function and, as mentioned, hormone regulation. But how much of that contributes to its overall effects is still largely unknown.

I know the 'weed' industry is new but I wonder if there are places that do this level of research on alcohol...
I see you are in France also..is marijuana legal in France?

[Octave]

Originally Posted by jh_on_the_cape

Thanks! I was told the hemp protein sales is a by product of the CBD boom.

Hemp protein has been around for ages - its a great vegan-friendly protein source. I remember using it about 15 years ago when I was starting to race, long before the CBD boom. I think the Hemp Bill in the US meant to revitalize hemp production (for fiber, feed, oil..etc.) probably has the most to do with it.

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I know the 'weed' industry is new but I wonder if there are places that do this level of research on alcohol...
I see you are in France also..is marijuana legal in France?

We've been doing cannabis/cannabinoid research since long before it was recreationally legal in the US. The "weed industry" hasn't really had any impact on our research, aside from more non-scientists reading our publications.

Marijauna is not legal in France, no. We are an academic research lab, the legality only becomes an issue for grant applications etc. Since it is still federally illegal in the US, research is equally difficult here and there.