OT: The “Crisis in Boys and Men.”

[Chris]

Originally Posted by BobbyJones

Just go watch Fight Club.

This is the best piece of advice on this thread in all seriousness, although I would go a step further and tell you to read the book. Chuck Palahniuk did a brilliant job of capturing an issue that has been rearing it's head in society for the last couple of decades. Boys and subsequently men are being shamed for having male characteristics during their youth. They are rarely allowed to rough house for example. I'm not saying to raise mysogynists or beer swilling wife beaters, but there is a need to allow "boys to be boys"... I recognize that could be a dangerous thing to say these days. That grip strength measurement, while somewhat comical, is relevant to the decline rates of testosterone levels (I'm not saying head down to a T clinic and get jacked) and subsequent rates of depression and despair amongst men.

I teach kids jiu jitsu. Something I would advise anyone with girls to consider. I have two daughters and believe it's an indispensable skill for a woman to have, but when it comes to boys, I can't tell you how many mothers and fathers come up to me and talk about how our class is one of the few outlets where their boys are allowed to be aggressive toward each other in a controlled setting without being called down for it. Males tend to be rougher across species and rough housing is a consistent element of play across species as well.

Also, Scott Galloway "Prof G" speaks about this, in the terms off men in the work force, frequently on his podcast.

“I see in the fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables, slaves with white collars, advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of the history man, no purpose or place, we have no Great war, no Great depression, our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives, we've been all raised by television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires and movie gods and rock stars, but we won't and we're slowly learning that fact. and we're very very pissed off.”
― Chuck Palahniuk

[tommyrod74]

Originally Posted by Kingfisher

Moderator please lock this thread.

Why? It's been (to this point) a civil, interesting discussion of a topic of interest to many of us.

It's not like the thread was titled "Dura-Ace vs. Super Record - for the 1001st time, which is supreme?" and you got Rickrolled into reading it. Just don't click, you'll be ok. Or participate. Or just read. Whatever.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by tommyrod74

Why? It's been (to this point) a civil, interesting discussion of a topic of interest to many of us.

It's not like the thread was titled "Dura-Ace vs. Super Record - for the 1001st time, which is supreme?" and you got Rickrolled into reading it. Just don't click, you'll be ok. Or participate. Or just read. Whatever.

Agreed. Here. Here.

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by mlc

I recently graduated from teenagedom and while I think this (specifically the climate nihilism) is a huge issue, as much as that, there's the issue of asking whether or not it's worth selling one's soul to change things. Sure, I'm at a college and in a position to guarantee that I could buy any house I would ever want, and sure I could pursue a research path to help try and fix the climate, but at what point would those endeavors make me so unhappy as to not be worth it? The fact that many of my peers feel as though altruism, happiness, and a sustainable career are goals that are opposed rather than linked is (to me) indicative of a non-gendered rottenness that will have to be reckoned with sooner rather than later. This being said, the school environment I'm in definitely amplifies these concerns... stakes often feel all-too-high, and people are pretty tightly wound. Nonetheless, I think it's an issue that will have to be dealt with if we as a society want to combat nihilism/apathy at its core, rather than pretend we can treat them as symptoms without addressing their roots.

I think variations of this is always happening in society. The one part I think is worse is the FOMO amplification machine which is the combo of Social Media and the Smart Phone. I was fortunate when I was your age since I did not know what my friends were constantly doing, so I never felt like I was missing out (until way after I heard about the party a week later ).

Part of our news cycle has always been a constant debbie downer. Only bad news is news, and we don't hear nightly about the continued progress of the human race. It's slow and steady and we are all benefiting. (Not equally, but we are all benefitting. )

If I could time slip you back to the 80's when I was your age, you aren't worried about global warming, but you may be worried about Star Wars and potential nuclear conflict with the Soviet Union. Or maybe you are unsure about what field you should study because large part of American Industry is becoming the Rust Belt, and 'Japan as Number 1' by Ezra Vogel is on the NY Times bestseller list. (It seems almost quaint now- Japan as Number 1). And in 1987 we had this stock market crash and we are afraid America will be financially ruined.

We can time slip in the 1970's. It turns out the American President was a crook, the current President wasn't elected, inflation is raging, the Middle East has us by the short hairs with the oil embargo. NYC is bankrupt.

We can go back in the 1960's and we may really be bummed. You might be drafted and have to go to this country called Vietnam. Or because you were in college, you weren't drafted, but ended up being shot at Kent State protesting the war. . . Or maybe you decide the world needs love and drop out and become a hippy. Or maybe you go work for Exxon and run the lobbying effort that says Global Warming is a hoax. Or you can work for Philip Morris and convince the public cigarette smoking does not cause lung cancer. These things just didn't happen....

Pick any decade, and there are some rough rides and ethical choices to make.


Pre WW2, homeownership in the US was about 45%. It wasn't until after the war with Federal programs ownership grew to be in the 65-70% area.

Home ownership has slipped a little recently, but it is still in the mid-60s. Average age of the first time homebuyer is 33/ It think it wobbles between 30-33 since the early 90's. And some of this increase in age of ownership is probably because on average hispanic and black buy homes later. Redlining still exists, but at least it is not as prevalent at before.

Progress is never a straight line up, but the moving average is definitely still moving upward.

I can't speak for the rest of you, but if I get to pick any time in human history to live, now seems like a pretty good time.
The only thing we like about the past is we know how it turns out. But what fun is that? Where is the surprise?

[Mr. Pink]

I'll just chime in to this thread and drop an amazing stat that a British academic who has published a book about loneliness, (sorry, forgot her name), that one out of five millenials (she did this study maybe eight years ago) have no friends. Zero. I found that remarkable and disturbing.

[benb]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

I'll just chime in to this thread and drop an amazing stat that a British academic who has published a book about loneliness, (sorry, forgot her name), that one out of five millenials (she did this study maybe eight years ago) have no friends. Zero. I found that remarkable and disturbing.

Not really surprising. I'm late Gen X but close enough to being a millennial I see some of the same patterns. I have 3 siblings. I'm the oldest. My sister and I are Gen X and my 2 younger brothers are millennials if you are drawing a line in the sand. In reality we are all very similar and have some traits from each of the two generations. A lot of this generation crap is overly simplified. My parents are both oldest children and are boomers. But their youngest siblings are at the beginning of Gen X. They all have a mix of the stereotypical traits of their supposed generations too.

Versus my parents (boomers) we both work. 99% of the couples we know are in the same boat. We have a way way way more hectic life with less downtime than my parents did.

My mother was at home taking care of us but also running social life for the two of them and constantly setting up social events with other adults. We 100% do not have time with that. Everyone is working and then juggling the kids activities, and then we do chores till 10-11PM every night and then get up at 5-6AM and start it all over again.

If anything is at fault it's that kids go to so many organized activities. But the thing is we have no choice.. part of the time they have to go to organized activities because everyone is working. Then people easily slide into letting those activities take over additional time, partly cause the kids want to do those things because their peers do them.

So meanwhile we know lots of other parents in the same boat. Are we friends or are we acquaintances? Not many of us have any actual "me time" where we would go do something with a friend with the kids completely out of the picture.

I see cycling as an activity that fits into this in a lot of ways. I'd say there are 0 people I have ever met cycling that I'd count as more than an acquaintance. I've been riding seriously for 22 years. The one person who is really my friend doesn't count, cause he's someone I met when I was 15, the cycling thing didn't start till were were 24-25. And we're pretty isolated at this point both having kids now. Lots of super nice people and good times. But everyone is just meeting up and doing the bike ride and running back home to take care of everything else. If someone doesn't show up on the ride someone else just takes their place. No one is going to check in on someone who disappears for a while. No one is going to suggest a group do much of anything outside of showing up for the ride.

For the most part at this point I'm too busy to even really consider going on group rides.. cycling takes too much time that is not there if you have to be at a minimum fitness level and time investment to show up and have a good time, and if you know you're not making any true friends out of the whole thing it can seem like there are better options elsewhere. Which of course includes cycling alone.

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by benb

Not really surprising. I'm late Gen X but close enough to being a millennial I see some of the same patterns.

I'm solidly Gen-X and this fits me to a T. I've just moved (back) to Seattle and I don't know how I'm going to make friends here. It's a good move for family and finances, but when I was working for a boarding school it at least had a built-in community of adults that was easy to hang out with.

[benb]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

I'm solidly Gen-X and this fits me to a T. I've just moved (back) to Seattle and I don't know how I'm going to make friends here. It's a good move for family and finances, but when I was working for a boarding school it at least had a built-in community of adults that was easy to hang out with.

At least the stereotype of the west coast is that everyone wants to be your friend.

The stereotype here is that everyone already had all the friends they need/want by the time they finished school and no one thinks anyone else should be let into their clique. It's very insular and not a good scene for people who have moved around instead of staying close to the same hometown for their entire life.

Work people were something between acquaintances and friends for me (tech) but Covid completely erased/vanished 99.99% of that IME.

[jimcav]

The last few posts struck a nerve. I joined the navy at 18, a month before turning 19. I moved so frequently in my navy career, and there was enough BS and issues involved in my roles at duty stations, that I basically put my head down and did what I needed to do; and my stress relief was running--by myself. I eventually added cycling and MTB to that stress relief, and after 9/11 commuted to work until I retired in 2016 (again, all of this 99% all alone). I moved so much, 13 times, that I just didn't put the effort into making good friends. I had acquaintance friends via my wife's work, and then via our kids once we had them ad she was a mom/homemaker. Dating it was her circle of friends, as I really had none. My post-navy job was and is work from home, with infrequent contact to others--mostly email an now TEAMS messaging has become a permanent post-COVID addition.

I'm 53--never paid any attention to the generation I'm in etc. My only friends are the same 5 guys who were my best friends in HS. We are lucky in that we love each other and make the effort to see each other once a year. I see some of them more than once, but because we are not all even in the same region of the country, the once a year is the best we do for all 6 of us together.

Those 5 really aren't enough, and I know my life would be better with local friends, but I haven't made it happen. I can't imagine slogging through life without my few, decades-old friends. Seeing them once a year has helped me through some crap.

[Ozz]

Originally Posted by benb

At least the stereotype of the west coast is that everyone wants to be your friend.
.....

Not in PNW/Seattle......there is a thing called the "Seattle Freeze" where no local really wants to get to know a transplant.....it was even suggested as a name for our new NHL team....

Weird, but I guess it is a thing....

[thegunner]

Originally Posted by mlc

I recently graduated from teenagedom and while I think this (specifically the climate nihilism) is a huge issue, as much as that, there's the issue of asking whether or not it's worth selling one's soul to change things. Sure, I'm at a college and in a position to guarantee that I could buy any house I would ever want, and sure I could pursue a research path to help try and fix the climate, but at what point would those endeavors make me so unhappy as to not be worth it? The fact that many of my peers feel as though altruism, happiness, and a sustainable career are goals that are opposed rather than linked is (to me) indicative of a non-gendered rottenness that will have to be reckoned with sooner rather than later. This being said, the school environment I'm in definitely amplifies these concerns... stakes often feel all-too-high, and people are pretty tightly wound. Nonetheless, I think it's an issue that will have to be dealt with if we as a society want to combat nihilism/apathy at its core, rather than pretend we can treat them as symptoms without addressing their roots.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling you out specifically, but the fact that you can write the first sentence means that the stakes don't exist for you the same way they do for others (and how they view goals in life is explicitly tied to their own experiences).

[vespasianus]

Originally Posted by jimmy-moots

Is this not just a crisis of mediocre white men losing their only competitive advantage - being white and a man?

And then all the knuckle head acting out that’s comes with that sense of loss

Bingo. All this lack of "masculinity" and roughhousing is just silly.

[Kirk007]

Originally Posted by Ozz

Not in PNW/Seattle......there is a thing called the "Seattle Freeze" where no local really wants to get to know a transplant.....it was even suggested as a name for our new NHL team....

Weird, but I guess it is a thing....

And transplant can be applied to someone whose been here 2 years or 20 depending on the social cliche.

It would be an interesting anthropologic/social study as to why some communities and cultures are more welcoming - weather? ancestral cultures? presence or lack thereof of strong religious affiliations? the notion of the need and desirablity to have more stuff that drives our capitalist system and our work lives and fixation with equipping our children with all the experiences necessary to get in a good school at 18 so they can join the rat race at 22? Hmmm, maybe this would be a good research/hobby for retirement.

[paredown]

Originally Posted by Kirk007

And transplant can be applied to someone whose been here 2 years or 20 depending on the social cliche.

It would be an interesting anthropologic/social study as to why some communities and cultures are more welcoming - weather? ancestral cultures? presence or lack thereof of strong religious affiliations? the notion of the need and desirablity to have more stuff that drives our capitalist system and our work lives and fixation with equipping our children with all the experiences necessary to get in a good school at 18 so they can join the rat race at 22? Hmmm, maybe this would be a good research/hobby for retirement.

When we lived in Seattle, we too were struck by the aloofness of the long-time residents. We moved for my wife's career, and she got dropped into a pretty large office with a lot of Seattle natives--and the outstretched hands were few and far between.

We thought it was partly because the Seattle focus (especially in the summer) is on the outdoors--boats, camping, hiking--that generally you have a settled 'crew' that you invite for those sorts of things. In the winter, I suspect that a lot of people just stay home and drink to get through those depressing rainy winters...

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by benb

At least the stereotype of the west coast is that everyone wants to be your friend.

Echoing what others have said, people are generally friendly, but that doesn't mean that they'll invite you out after work or out for a hike/etc. on the weekend.

To my point, though, I'm too busy to meet new friends anyway, no matter the general attitude. I'm leaving the house at 7:00am, home at 5:00pm, having dinner with family and spending some small amount of time with my young son, putting him to bed, and then prepping or grading for the next day's teaching. That's all my choice of profession and having a child, though.